WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase

by Lionel_P_Hartley 41 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • stephen Bates
    stephen Bates

    Thank you every one for your kind remarks (even the old hippie!) I don't think I've ever been offered the leadership of three different countries in one day before...or any day, come to that. Now I've got three votes, that only makes about another 400 million to go.

    One thought occurs to me (I shld have put it in my letter to Mr Brown)what sort of religion is it that abandons people, however terrible, when they do wrong? Isn't there some cock crowing in Mr Brown's attempt to distance the JWs from the Slacks, particularly if, as some correspondents to this thread have said, they must have remained members if they were not disfellowshipped and continued to attend meetings however irregularly?

    Surely Christianity involves offering compassion, succour and aid, particularly to those who because of their behaviour deserve it least. What sort of religion? A religion which gives even the appearance of sanctioning the brutal chastisement of children based on Biblical precepts from another age and culture, I guess....Really Mr Brown ought to think these things through, but maybe that's not to be expected in his position.

    Thanks again,

    Steve Bates

  • stephen Bates
    stephen Bates

    Sorry to intrude again - just spotted that I wasn't actually offered the leadership of Australia by Mr and Mrs Ozzie. Never mind - with one Brit as head of state, who needs another? And anyway, beating the Poms at cricket just wouldn't be the same...I'd take the sponsorship though - anything to get away from the British winter.

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I enjoyed your reply Mr.Bates.

    I thought this quote, while on the surface appears to be true, is actually quite the opposite.

    "On the other hand, something I appreciate about being one of
    Jehovah's
    Witnesses is that we abhor all violent actions and behaviour. Life is
    sacred to
    us. To physically harm, abuse or kill others is diametrically opposed
    to the
    Bible principles we believe in and strive to practice
    Most people never stop and think that the "wonderful hope" they proclaim is the destruction of 6 billion non-Jehovah's Witnesses. The solution to mankind's problems is for God to destroy all world governments and to kill everyone who is not a "lover of Jehovah".

    At the same time, they do not encourage violence or violent acts on a personal level, so from this perspective their statement was accurate.

    Path

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Stephen,

    AAAAHHHHHHH !

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
    Anonymous

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hello Stephen Bates,

    You mentioned "a religion that abandonds people." I think it is quite likely that we will find that the Longo family murders in Oregon, USA, were precipitated by the deep despair that Mr. Christian Longo experienced after being disfellowshipped by Jehovah's Witnesses in Ypsilani, Michigan, whereupon he immediately lost the affections of his parents (Christian's father was a local elder) and the rest of his extended JW family.

    Ultimately only Mr. Longo is responsible for his actions, but one can imagine how the "mark" of disfellowshipping could lead to a despair so deep that murdering his wife and children may have seemed preferable to witnessing their death at the invisible hand of an avenging God at Armageddon.

    The WTS will claim that it HAS to disfellowship to keep their organization "clean" (Oh yes, so very clean!). This archaic and brutal practice causes deep psychological harm to the "disiplined" one; harm for which the WTS sees itself as blameless.

    Again, THANK YOU!

  • openminded
    openminded

    Dear Mr Brown,

    Your letter o' 14th December, addressed variously ta muh ma fuckin colleague Emily Bell, who edits da Guardian Unlimited website, an' ta someone called Ms Best, who I
    do not recognise, has been passed ta me as I wrote da four paragraph story about da Slacks o' Chicago last 17th November ta which ya took exception. I be not quite sure why it took ya uh month ta respond but I thought I should at least reply ta ya.

    First o' all, may I say dat I be very flattered dat ya state dat da Watchtower magazine an' Awake! both quote so extensively from da fair an' unbiased coverage provided by da Guardian. Since I do not normally see either publication, I would be most interested if ya would care ta send me cuttings o' deez articles, complete wiff da attributions since, as ya know, it would be uh breach o' copyright ta use our material without permission in yo' magazines. Your encomium iz nevertheless welcome.

    Since muh ma fuckin recent writings about da Jehovah'sWitnesses gots concerned its affiliation (and subsequent disaffiliation) from da United Nations, an organisation it refers ta in its loving, joyful, peaceful, long-suffering an' kindly way - ta quote Mr Leon Slack - as da scarlet coloured beast o' da Book o' Revelation an' since ya clearly took nahh objection ta da accuracy o' deez articles (otherwise we's should presumably gots received uh letter from you) I
    sincerely trust dat in da interests o' accuracy an' openness deez too willhave appeared in yo' publications an' I hope dat dis here wuz so. I peep forward ta seeing dem.

    My article did not imply dat da couple acted as dey did cuz dey wuz Jehovah'sWitnesses. It merely stated dat dey wuz devoutly religious an', separately, dat dey wuz Jehovah'sWitnesses. Both deez facts iz true an' not disputed by ya or Mr Leon Slack. Since I assume yo' sect do not condone such appalling behaviour, I cannot see what yo' problem wiff da story iz. It
    do not allege dat dis here iz normal behaviour by Jehovah'sWitnesses or ta be expected by dem, so I be at uh loss ta explain yo' sensitivity or ta see how ya can justify da slur on muh ma fuckin integrity by suggesting dat da story in some unspecified way "gave insufficient attention ta facts" in its brief four paragraphs.

    I gots uh confession ta make, dat in compiling muh ma fuckin report on da case o' da Slacks, taken from reports in da highly-regarded Chicago press, I did not static ta contact either yo' London or yo' Brooklyn offices. The reason fo' dis here wuz dat muh ma fuckin experience o' dealing wiff Mr Gillies over da United Nations issue has been dat he believes fully in da Jehovah'sWitnesses' stated "theocratic war strategy" by which it iz permissible ta mislead wiff half-truths an' evasions "birdseed" such as we's non-members o' yo' sect. Since dis here iz da experience o' muh ma fuckin colleagues in Britain also over da years, may I suggest ta ya, as director o' da office o' public 411, dat ya may gots uh certain credibility problem in yo' dealings wiff da media at least in dis here country.

    In any event, I be not sure in uh four paragraph article how much space could gots been given ta Mr Leon Slack'sobservations since, despite being uh loving, joyful, peaceful, kindly, mild an' self-controlled etc person he had evidently failed ta spot previous episodes o' mistreatment by his brudda o' his chil'ns,
    or ta act upon dem as he clearly should gots done had he been aware o' dem.

    This suggests dat his closeness ta his brudda'sfamily an' hence his knowledge o' his brudda'sbeliefs wuz not as thorough as it might gots been. Perhaps ya would care ta respond ta dis here.

    Yours sincerely,

    slap mah fro!

  • Nassau
    Nassau

    There are two different things here:
    1 - telling the truth about what happened, to expose and to reveal stories with objectiveness and impartiality (without the “glasses of any religion);
    2 - trying to attack a religion, as an organization that states to be representing millions of sincere people (does it?);
    3 – take advantage of the misfortune of some religious people individually (and not representing any religion as a whole).
    What about the stories of the Catholic and the Protestants Churches in Northern Ireland? How does Mr. Bates view this?
    Nassau

  • stephen Bates
    stephen Bates

    I have just caught up with Nassau's comments, which I am sorry that I don't quite understand, not least because s/he says he wants to raise two different things and then raises four.
    As I see it, a journalist should report as objectively as possible, being aware that complete impartiality is impossible. And that one has to use one's judgement about the balance of probabilities and "truth" on any issue so that this does not preclude coming down on one side or the other.
    Some correspondents and evidently the WTS itself seem to believe that I have some malign animus against the JWs or that I am motivated by some spite or hatred of religion. Nothing could be further from the truth - I had no views about the JWs until I started dealing with them and researching the UN story and its background. I think in the circumstances, seeing their publications, hearing from former witnesses on this website and from current witnesses and speaking to others directly, that it is impossible not to conclude that the organisation bears a heavy burden of responsibility and hypocrisy in its dealings with the membership and the outside world.
    It is impossible to retain equanimity here, even as one tries to remain as objective in one's reporting as possible. Indignation is a natural response but I have tried to remain as fair as possible. How, though, do you remain on an even keel in the face of such palpable nonsense as the theocratic war strategy or the attitude to the UN? But no one has yet pointed out to me any significant factual or interpretive errors in what I have written.
    I am not trying to attack religion in general, or particular, Nassau, or its adherents. But I don't see why I should not point out some malignities in the way men practise it. I don't doubt people's sincerity but I am surely allowed to question their motives occasionally. It is a journalist's job not to take things at face value - otherwise all is a suffocating blandness which is not genuinely informative to the reader. We must question in order to inform. I don't restrict this to the JWs - as others have pointed out I have written critically of other religions, including my own, Catholicism, as well. To know that there are failings in my religion does not stop me being a Catholic or going to Mass.
    Finally: Northern Ireland. This is much too comnplicated a subject to discuss here. Even at the level of definitions Nassau reveals a certain degree of ignorance: there are several varieties of Protestantism in NIreland of varying degrees of vehemence and bigotry. My newspaper has written critically of the situation in the province and the behaviour of its inhabitants for decades. To say though that some NIreland folk misuse their religion and even that some ministers of religion have manipulated them to exacerbate the social, economic, religious, political and historical tensions there is not to argue that Christianity should therefore be junked.
    Does this help? Sorry to go on....

  • Nassau
    Nassau

    Dear Mr. Bates,
    I appreciate your job as a journalist - but you are not exempt from critics! Your job can be judge by the readers, ca it? You shouldn't write as Catholic but as journalist. Here are some examples of your professionalism and objectiveness:
    1 - "Even at the level of definitions Nassau reveals a certain degree of ignorance"
    Comment: Is it professionally correct to call the readers 'ignorant' just if they do not agree with your personal point of view about the report? All information that I got from the long Catholic vs. Protestant war is from your colleagues journalists (TV news, radio, newspapers); If I am an ignorant about this subject I can thank you, journalists. Would not be better to say, vs., "Mr. Nassau is not well informed about this subject" or "there is a lack of information patent in the words of Mr. Nassau"?
    2 - "I am not trying to attack religion in general, or particular, Nassau, or its adherents"
    Comment: You have to wait for a normal reaction from those who feel attacked by your reports. If I attack your religion, it is normal to wait that you, as Catholic, your reaction and response, isn't it Mr. Bates? What would you expect from JWs? Applause?
    3 - "But no one has yet pointed out to me any significant factual or interpretive errors in what I have written"
    C - Typical...very typical reaction at any single observations about our work. Let's see:
    3.1 - "significant"? maybe for you, evidently, Mr. Bates.
    "Interpretation"? Is always different according to the various points of view.
    "Errors"? are hardly ever recognized by their own authors, Mr. Bates.
    4 - How many Catholics, Protestant, Muslim, Hindus, Jewish, etc. etc. daily rape, beat, molest, murder their own children, that are subject to your keen journalistic eyes? Have you ever thought why, when a JW molest his child is the target of all media, while one Catholic can practice it every single day, without "the flashes of the cameras"? Why is that, Mr. Bates? I wonder!
    5 - I am not defending or attacking any particular religion or belief. I am not observing any religious person individually (as you do it), but I am against a specific organization that used lies and mislead people for ten long years! Which is quite different from your Catholic’s point of view, Mr. Bates, quite different!
    Nassau
    (a citizen wearing not any religious glasses)

  • Nassau
    Nassau

    For reflection:
    If a Catholic sexually molest or murders his own children, nobody will say that the Priest is guilty, or that, the entire Catholic Church should be condemned, because it could not prevent this conduct from one Catholic follower.
    Why should we condemn all JW Organisation by one nasty conduct? Judas was a close follower of Jesus Christ!

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