Would love to read opinions on this. (page 4)

thetrueone

Since God itself is a lie, can a lie tell a lie ?

The ancient Israelites told many embellished lies/stories about their god, some are actually in the bible .

God never said anything about becoming like one of us. He simply said not to eat, or they would die. The devil said they would not die; they would become like God, knowing good and evil. Part truth/part lie - which is deceiving. So just because he spoke something that was also true, this does not mean that he did not lie.

Do you really take everything in the bible at face value? You don't see symbolism anywhere, even when parts speak about things being spiritual and not literal?

Tammy

darth frosty

Gen 3:21,22...I cant give you more than that. Really read the entire chapter and come to your on conclusions. I understand your point about symbolism but the genesis account I reference is told as the ACTUAL origin of creation and sin. If you want to say that it is all symbolic thats fine if thats what you need to have faith.

tec

Sorry, Darth - maybe I'm not doing a good job of making myself clear?

I never said I thought this was all symbolic. I don't think it matters if it was or not. The point is the same. But I do think that the death God spoke of was a spiritual death - same as Jesus spoke of. Same as Paul (I think Paul, but maybe not, I'll have to look it up) when he said that people would be dead in their transgressions.

But...

Even if it wasn't spiritual death, Adam and Eve did die as a result of their disobedience. (cast out and barred from eating the tree of life now that they knew good and evil)

So in the case of either scenario - Satan did deceive Eve. He did lie. God did not.

Tammy

Scully

Maybe god doesn't lie, but why did he approve of and endorse an angel's proposal to "become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all [Ahab's] prophets" in order to fool Ahab and have him suffer defeat at Ra'moth-gil'e·ad? (1 Kings 22:19-23)

Scully

Tammy

I love the way everyone just assumes that Satan was the bad guy in Genesis.

And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E'den to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die." ~ Genesis 2:15-17 (NWT)

Now I have a bit of a problem with this whole scenario. First of all, any parent will tell you that their responsibility, their social obligation, is to teach their children the difference between good and bad / right and wrong. And here, we have god - the "parent" to the universe - telling his human "son" that the knowledge of good and bad is forbidden to him - what kind of parenting is that? That god wants Adam to remain ignorant of right and wrong, and any attempt at self-actualization (learning right from wrong or developing an ethical / moral code and values of his own) is punishable by DEATH. Not just death by old age, but "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die".

Life in the garden of E'den went along merrily with Adam naming the animals, and then realizing that he has no mate. So god makes one for him. Apparently Adam has instructed Eve about the tree in the interim, because when she meets the serpent in the garden, she is able to recite the warning against eating from that tree.

So [the serpent] began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?" At this the woman said to the serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.'" At this the serpent said to the woman: "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the day that you eat from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad." ~ Genesis 3:1-5

So Eve took from the tree and ate its fruit. So did Adam. And what happened? They did NOT die "in the day you eat from it", the way God had told them, but their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and bad. (Genesis 3:22) The serpent had told Eve the truth about not dying immediately, and that eating the fruit would give them the knowledge of good and bad. God lied to them, not "Satan".

What was it about "the knowledge of good and bad" that God wanted to withhold from Adam and Eve? What, exactly, is so horrible about knowing good and bad? Isn't that part of normal human development? What were God's motives in keeping Adam and Eve ignorant of the knowledge of good and bad? Was it so that they would have to do what god told them, without question? Is that a healthy dynamic or one that fosters dependence rather than maturity? Does it seem reasonable, or even loving, for a parent to withhold from their children lessons in morality, ethics, basic concepts of right and wrong? What kind of parent does that make "god"??

dgp

Scully, I didn't know that about the deceptive angels. So He manages to deceive even if he can't lie himself. And I would like angels to be a little more reliable than this, you know? Is it me, or this opens a terrible door to doubting the role that the angel played with Mary?

tec

Scully - Well, we have a world of people who have firsthand knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps that firsthand knowledge of evil is what God was trying to spare us from. Perhaps Adam and Eve weren't ready yet to learn of it. Perhaps he wanted them to learn faith first. And we have to teach our children right from wrong because we live in a world that has people committing right/wrong acts every day. Adam and Eve did not have that. But God told them what not to do, and he told them the consequence. (Just as we teach and show our children) Yet they ignored or disbelieved the command, and then suffered said consequence.

I can't speak for God, of course, which is why I say perhaps. I can only speak from my understanding, as you and everyone else can only speak from your understanding.

But I also don't remember Satan saying you will not die immediately. Only that you will not die. So I take back what I said earlier about it not mattering if it was physical or spiritual death. It does matter. But I already believed that it was spiritual death, as I said and explained.

So unless Satan was an innocent dove who didn't know what was going to happen to Adam and Eve after he convinced them to disobey God - then he most certainly did deceive them. He certainly wasn't acting in their best interests.

Tammy

darth frosty

I just realized how to frame some peoples arguments for the bible, when it doesn't fit into their preconceived belief or faith.

It like they turn to fan fiction of the scritures. Just like you have fan fiction for harry potter and star wars.

tec

Darth - Saying that Satan never lied is not reading what you want into the scriptures? Eve, herself, said, "The serpent deceived me."

I don't want to argue with you, Darth, but this seems to be a very clear point.

Tammy

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