So the 40 years has no significance, Miller came with 40 years because he thought that was the length of a generation? Unbelievable.
Where did 607 come from?
by MrFreeze 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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diamondiiz
40 years if I remember correctly had to do with the years between when Jesus was baptized and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Barbour and Russell started with 1874 as a date for Jesus' second return which corresponded to his baptism in 30AD and added 40 years which meant that the destruction of the wicked world would occur in 1914AD. The 40 years was also supported by the pyramid calculations if I'm not mistaken. All the dates that Russell taught were said to have been perfectly in agreement with the pyramid calculations, history events and what they observed taking place. Russell went as far as saying something to the effect that if any of these dates were taken out, the entire harmony of their chronology would be a failure. And all these dates were 1799 (fall of babylon - pope, and start of the last days), 1874 Jesus invisible return, 1878 Jesus taking power in heaven and 1914 as the end of gentile times and destruction of the wicked world.
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scholar
MrFreeze
I think I misunderstood your question. The date of 607 and its precursor 606 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem is most definitely well established according to the Biblle and secular history. The corrected date of 607 BCE is validated by the determination of the seventy years of Jeremiah and the simple fact that it also commenced the Gentile Times which expired in 1914 CE. This means that ancient and modern history along with prophecy corroborates the determination of 607 BCE as fully explained by the 'celebrated' WT scholars/
scholar JW
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debator
Using bible-based Chronology is a fact from it's usage by the Jews themselves and is explained in the bible. All Jehovah's witnesses know this!
Also 607 is a Bible date those that try and debunk it are arguing that the Bible God's word is wrong. There is no way a true christien would support secular history from one man-written source against inspired Bible history.
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teel
debator, from your last sentence I have a feeling this topic is in over your head. There are valid explanations that conform both with the secular history and Bible history, noone here is arguing against the Bible. If you want to learn more, there are literally hundreds of threads detailing this.
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debator
Hi teel
Yes I do know this is a huge topic made far bigger than it ought to be. But I find extra-biblical sources used as explanations limiting because they are searched for/chosen to support an already established viewpoint. Was anyone there at that time? No. Do we give credit to other man-made sources over the Bible? yes. You end up playing scholar/website ping-pong with each other.
What are we talking about here 20 years difference in dating? This is not a life-changing information for me and it is simply for using against current bible drawn chronological understandings that can be refined if needed.
Thirdwitness often debates this point quite thoroughly in favour of the witnesses.
http://thirdwitness.com/607_BCE/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/
For those that are interested in this topic from a witness standpoint the above link is a good one to get the whole picture. But personally for me prophecy fulfillment is only 100% in hindsight and no christian religions should be judged from such a fluid subjective topic.
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teel
Do we give credit to other man-made sources over the Bible?
Using 537 BCE as starting point for calculating the 'Bible based' date of 607 is also giving credit to man-made sources... You can't prove 537 unless you use man-made sources; and there's just about the same amount of proof supporting 587 as it is for 539 (by which I mean both dates have huge amount of proof backing them up).
This is not a life-changing information for me
See, this is where you're wrong. It is exactly the JWs who have a high vested interrest in 607 BCE, and historians are who could not care less if it was 607 or 587.
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debator
HI Teel
Witnesses certainly have confidence in this chronology drawn understanding, but since prophecy can be refined if needed. I do not see it as make or break as you do.
Prophecy is massively subject to refinement because of it's nature subject to understanding it and fulfillment. Even bible-based chronology understanding. The Jews were in expectation of a messiah but even they couldn't be precise despite all the bible chronology they were given on it.
It is easier for us to go back from Jesus himself (the fulfilment) and see how easily he fits the chronology regarding the messiah. Than the Jews could go forward to pinpoint him using prophecy. Prophecy is only 100% in hindsight but that doesn't mean we shouldn't use it or condemn for mistakes on it. 1914 is a current understanding of this bible chronology and it works in conjunction with other Prophetic signs we are to look for, as signs of these the last days.
Although many don't bother anymore most Christian religions have at some point tried to use Bible chronology regarding Armageddon getting it wrong is not a crime but not using all the Bible tools available to us including chronology and prophecy would be foolish.
Fear of failure/mistakes is never a good excuse with God.
Matthew 25:24-26 (New International Version)
24 "Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
26 "His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?
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isaacaustin
There is nor efinement of a false prophet- just a re-writing and whole new web of lies to cover their tracks.
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debator
Hi isaac
But who is the false prophet? Witness do not meet the BIBLE requirements to be false prophets they have never claimed inspiration the ability to speak words from God himself. Which is the basic requirement in DEUT 18 to be a false prophet. We have discussed this before so I hope you understand I will always disagree with you on this one.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/194442/3/Generation-topic-dedicated-to-debator
God refines his People and yes people who are not Gods cannot be refined. Look now and see which people allow themselves to be refined from mistakes accepting they will stumble against groups which do not change for 100's years and only dig themselves deeper into false doctrines never admiting mistakes?
Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.