If the bible is god's handbook for man, why is it such gobbledegook?
by Aussie Oz 112 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tec
I see people not really believing that the bible is the divine inspired word of god, but reading the passages they like (Jesus parts) and base their life and hope on this, that even itself may well be myth and story like the other parts they reject as myth and story.
Hi again, Aussie. I don't expect that either of us will change the other's mind on this topic either, and I respect that as much as you do, but I wanted to address what you said here. This is for Keyser and Gladiator as well, since they both made similar statements expressing a similar idea:
Actually, I give them credit for accepting about god what other Christians conveniently choose to ignore, as misguided as it may be. - Keyser
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Once we dismiss the bits of the bible that are inconvenient, how can we be sure Jesus ever lived or said the things the bible claims he did? We may as well throw the whole book away. - Gladiator
First, I do not - in any way- pick and choose from what I like in the bible and then dismiss or ignore the rest. I am Christian - what that means, to me, is that I follow Christ. I follow the direction and teachings that He gave - in my life and in the way I read through the bible, OT and NT. If God does not change and Jesus is the reflection of His Father, then God is as Jesus showed Him to be.
So yes, I do base my life and my hope on this. Following Jesus has taught me to be honest with myself about my motives and faults, to forgive others (which is peace both to them and to myself), not to judge, to have patience with people and with things I do not understand, and to treat everyone with love and kindness.
I'm not always these things, of course, but I always strive to be.
Second, I certainly do not pick and choose what is convenient and ignore what is not convenient. Take Jesus teachings for example. Which is easier - a) not to have an affair, or b) not to have an affair and not to want or even think about having an affair?
Jesus brought a tougher teaching, I always thought. Sort of like He took it up a notch or two. Because it involved changing your heart, and not just following rules. Take loving your enemies, blessing those who curse you, giving to those who ask of you, turning the other cheek - do these sound convenient or easy? There is no room for speaking, but not doing. No smiling prettily at someone, all the while cursing them out in your head and heart.
So they don't sound convenient to me. But they do sound like truth. I believe in them all, even if I sometimes fail to live up to them. I don't shrug my shoulders and say no one is perfect though, when I do fail. I continue to strive toward them, hoping and praying for enough faith to fully embrace and apply these truths.
Gladiator - Some of the bible writers have lied - or at least spoken falsely, for whatever reason. Even the bible says this. (Jeremiah 8:8)
(Didn't write the scripture out in respect of your wishes on this thread, Aussie)
But all that means is that you actually have to work to see the truth - as with anything in life, I think. You have to wade through some of what man has corrupted, and the only way to do that is through Jesus. But if we were to dismiss everything that has ever had something false in it or about it, then we'd kind of have to throw everything and everyone away.
Anyway... I figure I've spoken enough for one night. Probably too much, but I thought some of it needed to be said.
Thanks for listening, if you read it all.
Tammy
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THE GLADIATOR
Thanks for your post Tammy.
What my post asks is how can you be sure that what he taught was not made up or that a man called Jesus really existed and performed miracles. According to the bible, Jesus regularly said 'it is written' and quoted form Israelite scripture. Yet he wrote nothing down himself.
Are we to conclude that the record of Jesus' life was was left to chance and that God had no hand in making sure it was accurately recorded. This raises the possibility that Jesus could have lived and died leaving no record behind at all. In which case we would know nothing of his teachings. If we do not accept that men 'spoke from God as they were born along by Holy spirit,' to produce the bible, then even the accounts of what Jesus taught could have been invented by well meaning dreamers.
You say that you 'follow the direction and teachings that He gave.' How can you know what he really said if the Bible is just myth, hearsay and the opinion of men. Is the idea of Jesus ever existing, anymore believable that the existence of the 300 gods that the Greek and Romans had at that time?
Some churches have taken the vengeful, judgmental parts of the bible and used them as divine authorisation for war mongering. Some have read the other things attributed to Jesus and laid down their swords. This what is meant when people say that Christians choose the bit from the bible that appeal to them.
Christians who believes they have a relationship with the risen Jesus, have could write another small bible and claim that it was revealed to them. This makes many wonder why Christians base their faith on the teaching of Jesus according to the bible. Why not start again? Joseph smith did!
I don't doubt that you are a kind person and were before you became a Christian. You choose to believe the parts of the bible that you find appealing; the ethics and morals that strike a chord or resonate with you. You find comfort in believing you have Jesus as a friend and feel the world would be a better place if it followed the sermon on the mount. I would suggest that this has more to do with the type of person you are than the overal message of the bible.
Peace
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Aussie Oz
I did read it Tammy, and again thanks for respecting my wishes...
''You have to wade through some of what man has corrupted, and the only way to do that is through Jesus. But if we were to dismiss everything that has ever had something false in it or about it, then we'd kind of have to throw everything and everyone away.''
But surely that means that when Timothy wrote ''all scripture is inspired'' he was either lying about every passage prior to his time...he didn't say, most, much or some...OR
If he was not lying, then you can't say any of it has been messed up by men. Or perhaps you are saying that 2000 years ago it was still all perfect and the messing up has happened since? Even if the messing up has been done since it was completed, it still does not change that it is recorded in visions, hallucinations, prophecies and other difficult to fathom methods...
I would like to put this thread back on track though, after all, discussions about christianity and individual beliefs are not its prime purpose.
Why if god intended the holy bible to be the guide for mankind leading all to salvation, did he not chose to make it plain and unmistakably easy to understand?
The question is not about the message of the bible, but about its format.
A) Was it perfect and messed up by men at some unknown time in history? If so, why would he allow this knowing that allowing it would lead to much confusion and death?
B) Was it deliberately 'gobbledegook' so 'right hearted ones' would search for the true message? If so, then it lies about itself being for all mankinds salvation, also resulting in millions of deaths over the hidden message and from missing it altogether.
C) If it was a perfect message messed up by men, was he incapable of stoping it getting messed up? Then he is not a supreme all powerful being at all.
D) Is it perfect the way it is? Then he is a god of trickery and games.
E) Was it perfect then corrupted by Satans agents? Then Satan is more powerful than god.
F) Was it perfect then messed up by men, and he did nothing about it? Either he has left the known universe for other projects or simply does not care
So far the only logical answers have been ''I dont know'' and '' it has been corupted by men''. But i feel neither address Gods role in this book being delivered in such a manner that this has happened to it or allowed to happen to it. OR why he chose to make it a mystery in the first place...
oz
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transhuman68
Oz, this is a description of the book of Revelation I found on the Wiki : George Bernard Shaw described it as "a peculiar record of the visions of a drug addict". [84]
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Chalam
Hello Oz,
Here's my answers-no verses included ;) If you want the verses then feel free to ask!
A) Was it perfect and messed up by men at some unknown time in history? If so, why would he allow this knowing that allowing it would lead to much confusion and death?
No
B) Was it deliberately 'gobbledegook' so 'right hearted ones' would search for the true message? If so, then it lies about itself being for all mankinds salvation, also resulting in millions of deaths over the hidden message and from missing it altogether.
For sure, God wants you to search for Him but also, He is searching for you.
Sure, salvation is for all but not all want it. As He told me one day "not everyone makes it". As much as I major on salvation is for all, I it is plain that not all receive the gift.
C) If it was a perfect message messed up by men, was he incapable of stoping it getting messed up? Then he is not a supreme all powerful being at all.
No
D) Is it perfect the way it is? Then he is a god of trickery and games.
God is like a lover, there is a chase involved for both parties.
E) Was it perfect then corrupted by Satans agents? Then Satan is more powerful than god.
No, Satan only has the power God gave Him and any corruption God allows. Sure, there are false gospels which people follow, principally because they ignore the message, see JWs for example and much of what Jesus has to say.
F) Was it perfect then messed up by men, and he did nothing about it? Either he has left the known universe for other projects or simply does not care
See above.
Blessings,
Stephen
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Aussie Oz
B) Was it deliberately 'gobbledegook' so 'right hearted ones' would search for the true message? If so, then it lies about itself being for all mankinds salvation, also resulting in millions of deaths over the hidden message and from missing it altogether.
For sure, God wants you to search for Him but also, He is searching for you.
Sure, salvation is for all but not all want it. As He told me one day "not everyone makes it". As much as I major on salvation is for all, I it is plain that not all receive the gift.
D) Is it perfect the way it is? Then he is a god of trickery and games.
God is like a lover, there is a chase involved for both parties.
Ok Stephen, i can gather you feel the bible is fine the way it is, indeed is meant to be the way it is so that right hearted ones would have to search rather than it being plain to see.
I feel strongly that even if the bible was very plain and straight forward with no room for conjecture, there would be many who would reject it. That being so, i still dont undertand why he didnt make it that way because it would for example, have meant a greater number of people exposed to an accurate message from the creator and that would have lead to more people knowing gods love rather than being turned off by a cacoffiny of interpretations and ideas. It would have also lead to those who rejected, making that choice on real knowledge rather than biblical/christian turnoffs.
I don't think we will change each others mind though! But it is all food for thought.
and thankyou for resisting the urge to quote scripture!
oz
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Chalam
Thanks for your reply Oz, here are some thoughts.
What would be even more plain and simple is if God showed up in all His majesty and presented His message plain and simple, right?
The thing is, in His wisdom He has decided that isn't such a great idea. I guess many would say "cool" but change their minds later on, in the same way Adam and Eve did.
I think it is important to recognise that where there is something of worth, there are usually counterfeits.
You have long tested the WT faith and are quite aware it makes big claims but does not deliver the goods.
The Christian faith is not about a life that appears after huge amounts of proving ones worthiness as none are worthy. It is about accepting that there is One who IS worthy and wants to swap our unworthiness for His righteousness.
The Christian life kicks in after we choose that swap and it is life as God intended, full of purpose, hope, joy, peace etc. Personally I can vouch for that 100%.
I had no vision, no purpose, no peace and little joy before a few years ago.
Blessings,
Stephen
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tec
Peace
And to you as well, Gladiator.
What my post asks is how can you be sure that what he taught was not made up or that a man called Jesus really existed and performed miracles. Is the idea of Jesus ever existing, anymore believable that the existence of the 300 gods that the Greek and Romans had at that time?
First - are you speaking of Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus Son of God? Many scholars (not all, I concede) agree that there is enough evidence of an historical Jesus. I think that if Jesus is a myth, then John, Paul, Matthew, Peter - all those who were witnesses to Christ - are mythical also. It seems unlikely that they would be willing to die for a myth that they, themselves, had perpetuated.
So I suppose my answer is 1) Faith, and 2) Evidence seems to support that Jesus did exist.
Also, the Holy Spirit does not need a written recording to lead people into the Truth. (or the poor, illiterate people who followed Jesus would have been left at the mercy of those who are literate - as we saw in medieval times with the Catholic church) Writings are a tool, a testament to things that happened. Some are inspired; some are just historical documents.
Some churches have taken the vengeful, judgmental parts of the bible and used them as divine authorisation for war mongering. Some have read the other things attributed to Jesus and laid down their swords. This what is meant when people say that Christians choose the bit from the bible that appeal to them.
I understand what you're saying here, and agree that some, perhaps even many, do this. But not all.
Christians who believes they have a relationship with the risen Jesus, have could write another small bible and claim that it was revealed to them. This makes many wonder why Christians base their faith on the teaching of Jesus according to the bible. Why not start again? Joseph smith did!
What would that do? Does writing things down carry more weight than speaking about things?
I don't doubt that you are a kind person and were before you became a Christian...
Thank you for your kind words, Gladiator - though I always believed in God and Jesus. I didn't always examine that faith, or understand what it meant, mind you. Since doing so, I started acknowledging and then removing the hypocrisy that I found in myself. I started caring about all others (not just the ones who were of benefit to me, or part of my close circle). Love for Jesus inspires more patience, more love and more kindness from me.
Tammy
OZ - I'm getting back on track to your original question in my next post. Promise :)
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tec
But surely that means that when Timothy wrote ''all scripture is inspired'' he was either lying about every passage prior to his time...he didn't say, most, much or some...OR
That would depend upon what Paul considered to be scripture. Some of the Tanuch? All of it? His writings and the gospels? Even now there is disagreement about which are inspired and which are not.
I'm not sure that I have anything to add that I haven't already said. I don't think the bible is inerrant - and not just for translation errors, though these play a role. But I think the message comes across clearly, despite what man may have done to mess it up. But perhaps because of what we have done to mess it up - now we may have to look harder.
Tammy