You learned that kind of jargon in the military?
and 32 years of Martial arts training, LMAO !
Why Trust the Bible?
by Mad Sweeney 69 Replies latest watchtower bible
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PSacramento
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Perry
Without the Catholic Church we would not have Vaticanus and the famous bible redactors Wescott and Hort. More importantly, we would not have the New World Translation.
Think of the possibilities.
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BurnTheShips
Perry, men in the early Catholic Church wrote the Gospels and the Epistles.
There is only one Body of Christ. All believers belong to it, even if only spiritually. It is universal, hence the word "Catholic."
The various apostolic churches together compose the visible Body of Christ here on earth. The Roman Catholic Church is just one of these.
Later on, the Catholic Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was able to distinguish those writings that authentically relayed what Jesus and the apostles taught from those from questionable sources.
This collection of authentic writings became our New Testament. Together with the Old Testament, we have the book we call the Bible.
This collection was made by the Catholic Church. This is indisputable history.
The Catholic Church preserved the Bible throughout the centuries. Monks in the early centuries spent a lifetime hand writing copies of the Bible. These were precious treasures that the Church preserved and protected.
Although most people in the early centuries could not read, the Mass, which is our ultimate prayer, has its prayers and readings coming almost exclusively from the Bible.
Mass is a Biblical prayer. Even back then, illiterate people were immersed in the Bible, often without realizing it, from the earliest of times.
Non-Catholic Christians who really know their Bible are often shocked when they attend a Catholic Mass and see just how much of the Mass comes straight from the Bible.
My point is that it is our book.
You would not have it without us.
We love it.
Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and does not contain error in matters of faith.
It contains what God wanted it to contain for our salvation. It tells us what we need to hear.
Each Bible book is unique. Each of the authors used his own style. Additionally, various literary styles were used. Therefore, care is necessary when trying to interpret Scripture.
The Catholic Church gives us a great deal of leniency in interpretion, but we can never interpret it in a way that is contrary to what the Church has always taught and believed, because these teachings also come straight from apostolic times.
For me, the Catholic Church has the last word on the meaning of Scripture, because it is her book. She has the institutional memory to know what it means.
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26
Remember, all the Protestant denominations did not begin until the 16th century. The Catholic Church was there at Pentecost.
BTS
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Perry
I suppose that for the uninformed I should make the distinction between the Church (body of all true believers) and the Catholic Church that is characterized by Papal authority. So "Church" means body of believers, and "Catholic church" means the hierachy or as you put it:
For me, the Catholic Church has the last word on the meaning of Scripture, because it is her book. She has the institutional memory to know what it means.
Millions of people died to establish this distiction, so lets show them a little honor here for their fiery sacrifice.
Were you ever a JW BTS? I'd really like to know.
Their is a lot of blending of the use of the terms Church and Catholic Church in your comments above. The terms are not interchangeable as Catholics usually try to maintain. Here is a chart of congregatrions throughtout history that have no connection to either the Catholic Church or in many cases to the Reformation as well. I have shown this to you before but you continue to preach otherwise.
Edited to Add:
...it cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo. In the following we list some of the catalogues of the books of the Bible which are given by early Christian writers.
- 326. Athanasius, bishop at Alexandria, mentions all of the New Testament books.
- 315-386. Cyril, bishop at Jerusalem, gives a list of all New Testament books except Revelation.
- 270. Eusebius, bishop at Caesarea, called the Father of ecclesiastical history, gives an account of the persecution of Emperor Diocletian whose edict required that all churches be destroyed and the Scriptures burned. He lists all the books of the New Testament. He was commissioned by Constantine to have transcribed fifty copies of the Bible for use of the churches of Constantinople.
- 185-254. Origen, born at Alexandria, names all the books of both the Old and New Testaments.
- 165-220. Clement, of Alexandria, names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. In addition we are told by Eusebius, who had the works of Clement, that he gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books.
- 160-240. Turtullian, contemporary of Origen and Clement, mentions all the New Testament books except 2 Peter, James and 2 John.
- 135-200. Irenaeus, quoted from all New Testament books except Philemon, Jude, James and 3 John.
- 100-147. Justin Martyr, mentions the Gospels as being four in number and quotes from them and some of the epistles of Paul and Revelation.
- Besides the above, the early church fathers have handed down in their writings quotations from all the New Testament books so much so that it is said that the entire New Testament can be reproduced from their writings alone.
Thus, the New Testament books were in existence in their present form at the close of the apostolic age. As a matter of fact, the apostles themselves put their writings into circulation. "And when this letter has been read among you, see that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also; and that you yourselves read the letter from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16). "I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren." (1 Thess. 5:27). The holy Scriptures were written for all (1 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 1:1) and all will be judged by them in the last day (Rev. 20:12; John 12:48). Jesus said that His Word will abide forever (Matt. 24:35; 1 Pet. 1:23-25).
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NomadSoul
Oh the prophecies claim...here's a simple answer...because the Bible was written after the so called events/prophecies. That means they could've easily been manipulated...
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sabastious
When there is only 1% left on the planet after all out nuclear war, they are going to think about how it happened when they rebuild the planet. They are going to remember how much the Bible helped...
-Sab
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PSacramento
Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and does not contain error in matters of faith.
Yes, indeed.
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BurnTheShips
Dear Perry,
Your chart doesn't demonstrate anything but a few red dots.
The hierarchy goes all the way back to Scripture. The apostles had authority. The apostles appointed others in various local churches, and their own successors when it was time for them to go to heaven.
This is a hierarchy.
There are clear lines of succession for all the Apostolic seats. The episcopos of Rome traces all the way back to the founding episcopos, Peter, the rock. This is why Western Catholicism is called Roman Catholic, because of Peter's episcopacy in Rome.
This apostolic lineage is also true of the other Catholic churches, as well as the Orthodox ones.
The Catholic Church is the world's oldest continuous institution.
This proves Jesus' prophecy until the present:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
BTS
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BurnTheShips
326. Athanasius, bishop at Alexandria, mentions all of the New Testament books.
- 315-386. Cyril, bishop at Jerusalem, gives a list of all New Testament books except Revelation.
- 270. Eusebius, bishop at Caesarea, called the Father of ecclesiastical history, gives an account of the persecution of Emperor Diocletian whose edict required that all churches be destroyed and the Scriptures burned. He lists all the books of the New Testament. He was commissioned by Constantine to have transcribed fifty copies of the Bible for use of the churches of Constantinople.
- 185-254. Origen, born at Alexandria, names all the books of both the Old and New Testaments.
- 165-220. Clement, of Alexandria, names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. In addition we are told by Eusebius, who had the works of Clement, that he gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books.
- 160-240. Turtullian, contemporary of Origen and Clement, mentions all the New Testament books except 2 Peter, James and 2 John.
- 135-200. Irenaeus, quoted from all New Testament books except Philemon, Jude, James and 3 John.
- 100-147. Justin Martyr, mentions the Gospels as being four in number and quotes from them and some of the epistles of Paul and Revelation.
- Besides the above, the early church fathers have handed down in their writings quotations from all the New Testament books so much so that it is said that the entire New Testament can be reproduced from their writings alone.
You criticize the Alexandrine text, yet you use Athanasius, Clement of Alexandria and Origen to bolster your case.
This would have been their text.
All of these individuals are Catholic Saints, and Catholic bishops as well.
So what exactly are you demonstrating?
As you note, the listings between the different individuals vary. There are some omissions in some of the lists. They may also contain books that didn't make the final cut.
None of them are comprehensive, they are the opinions of individual bishops only.
The authoritative list was made at the end of the 4th century, in a large council of bishops.
BTS
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Perry
Just word games. No matter how bad you want it...you can't change history. There is a difference between the "Church" characterized by being born again and personal testimony; and the "Catholic Church" characterized by papal authority and geography.
The only authority in the bible is at the local congregation level administered by a pastor and a deacon. Apostles are all gone.
First Requirement of an Apostle--An Eye Witness to the Resurrection
In Acts 1, Judas (the one who betrayed Christ) had already committed suicide and the remaining eleven apostles want to replace him. The name apostle is a particular name of these twelve men even though there are other men that probably have the gift of apostleship such as Barnabas, Silas, possibly James and a couple of others. However, the prime focal point is on these twelve men. As the eleven apostles seek to replace Judas, there are certain requirements that person will have to meet.
The first requirement of an apostle is that he must have had a firsthand experience of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. "One of these (apostles) must become a witness with us of His resurrection" (Acts 1:22). Paul defends his apostleship with proof that he, too, had seen the resurrected Christ. "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Cor. 9:1).
Some have said that Paul was not really an eye witness of Christ's resurrection just as the Corinthians were doubting Paul's right as an apostle. In answer to that doubt, Paul reviews Christ's order of appearances, "and that He appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5). "After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time . . . then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:6,7). Then Christ appeared to Paul! "and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also" (1 Cor. 15:8).There Are No Apostles Today
In light of the fact that a definite requirement of an apostle was that he must have seen the resurrected Christ, apostles ceased to exist when these first-century men died. Today, some will say that apostles and missionaries are the same thing. It is true that missionary is the Latin word for the Greek word apostle, and both words mean "one who is sent with a special message." However, the similarity ends there, for the twelve apostles had to have seen the resurrected Jesus Christ.
Edited to Add:
The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included most all of the New Testament books. The Muratorian Fragment is the oldest known list of New Testament books. It was discovered by Ludovico Antonio Muratori in a manuscript in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, and published by him in 1740. * It is called a fragment because the beginning of it is missing. Although the manuscript in which it appears was copied during the seventh century, the list itself is dated to about 170 because its author refers to the episcopate of Pius I of Rome (died 157) as recent. He mentions only two epistles of John, without describing them. The Apocalypse of Peter is mentioned as a book which "some of us will not allow to be read in church."
