The first 4 pages (PART ONE) examines the arguments Amnesian made regarding JW Elder and non-Elder culpability. The last 6 pages (PART TWO) address her disguised agenda, hidden in sassy-classy language:
PART ONE: ARE JW ELDERS, WHO NO LONGER BELIEVE THE RELIGION, CULPABLE OF WRONG IF THEY CHOOSE TO STAY JWs FOR SOME PERIOD, EVEN MANY YEARS?
In order to get a complete picture of the debate, I need to step back to where it started: My post to Borgfree: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17880&site=3
I asked, ”What about Elders who stay in? Are they really culpable, fitting the profile you mention? One ex-Elder and PO who has posted here was removed as an Elder in August 2001 and later DF’d in September this year for apostasy. Yet, I knew him as a poster on this forum and on the old H20 long before this happened. His insight and involvement, like many other current Elders who post on ex-JW forums, provide help in many ways. Are they also guilty of harm because they choose to stay in the organization for serious personal reasons? Are they able to mitigate harm, or even avoid causing harm if they can find ways to steer around certain harmful teachings of the Society?” ... “I question: Because I am not sure how to judge current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts. Must they exit the organization no matter what in order to maintain a sense of integrity? Or is it possible that these types of Elders can do good, avoid harm, and find some way to balance out their continued active involvement? Is this a ‘Black and White’ issue, or perhaps an area that allows shades of gray? What do you and others think? – Amazing”
My goal was not to attack or defend any person or group. I was uncertain as to exactly what I thought, so I was searching out what others thought. Then, Lee Elder responded:
LEE ELDER said:
”Some of these folks are helping and can play an important role in moving the organization to where it needs to be.If I could have stomached it, I would have stayed longer. Most really do their very best. In some ways I still feel like I betrayed some of the members of my congregation by leaving them in the hands of oppressive wolves.” ... “I think we have to respect the choices that other elders make. In the end, we all accept the natural consequences of our choices. I see nothing to gain by second guessing others in this regard and hope that others don't judge me for way the I handled my situation. I did the best that I could, as I'm sure you did too.”Lee Elder, in my opinion, addressed an important aspect of this issue that was drowned out of the discussion. That is, he felt that if he could, he would have stayed longer. Why? Not to carry out some temporary “Kamikaze” plan as Amnesian addressed in her earlier post as the only way a JW Elder could justify some extended stay in the religion. Rather, Lee Elder made it very clear that the extension of his own stay was to mitigate harm he saw done, and for him to leave would be a betrayal of those affected.
AMAZING response to Lee Elder: ”Your sentiments about “”””some”””” JW Elders remaining in the organization, and continuing their service as Elders, is similar to my own. I do not believe that “””all””” Elders who disagree with the organization but stay for personal reasons should be “””rigidly””” categorized as some posters suggest. I was merely opening up the topic because it is one that at times seems to influence the flavor of certain posters comments. Thanks. – Amazing”
I am highlighting the words “””some”””... “””all””... and ...“””rigidly”” to show that it was then, and is now, my position that I am NOT being dogmatic, insistent on only ONE view, or making broad-brush sweeping categorical judgments.
Now enters “AMNESIAN” on the same thread still, addressing her comments to LEE ELDER:
”Elders who remain such for the WTS, no matter how well-intentioned and decent they perceive themselves to be, are as guilty of perpetuating egregious abuse and inflicting monstrous damage on others--- no matter how thoughtfully they claim to execute such--- as the wicked elder who feels no need absolution for his rotteness.It is unconscionable to justify carrying out atrocities on trusting innocents by claiming to do so in the service of some greater cause. To suggest that they shouldn't be judged by us sadly smacks of the same type "counsel" the Society excels at dispensing to inflict guilt on the multitude for believing their lying eyes.”Amnesian, at this juncture, makes no allowance or exemptions for “””well-intentioned””” Elders, and clearly lumps them in the same pot with those who she judges as “””wicked”””.
WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT AGREE WITH: Amnesian’s point in principle, as an ideal, sounds good. In the extreme ideal, I can extend her logic and speculate that it would be very nice if there were a Disgruntled Elders Club where all disaffected JW Elders could sign up. Then they could coordinate some massive walkout with families intact, go to the media, report molesters to the authorities, and manage to influence a large contingent of Doubting JWs to walk out with them. This would have enormous consequences for the Watch Tower Society.
Understanding that such a scenario is improbable, we are left with a steady stream of disaffected JW Elders who, here and there, walk out on a daily or weekly basis, having maybe some influence on family and some friends. This too is an ideal that does not develop so neatly on average, because the Watch Tower Society is so very effective at discrediting and vilifying such ex-JWs as apostates. Also, each JW Elder is a unique individual who reaches the final stages of “””cognitive dissonance””” differently and within different time frames. After I read Crisis of Conscience my faith in the religion was greatly diminished, but I did not see “where” else to go ... my own cognitive dissonance was only starting the long journey which took another 3 years before I could walk away. During my last 6 to 7 months as an active JW, I was focusing most of my time on my family, all of which left with me including a couple of friends. I was among the lucky ones. There are so many more situations where the reality is ugly, brutal, and unforgiving.
Some JW Elders may need to take longer periods while others can read just one book and a few days later they are walking out of the religion regardless of family, friends, or anything else that may personally affect them. Some, while understanding that the religion is seriously flawed, do honestly believe that they can mitigate harm or help with reform. To suggest an all-or-nothing protocol that assumes that any man who remains an Elder for these purposes is bad because he is still promoting abuses and atrocities is too narrow and rigid.
WHAT NOW HAPPENS with AMNESIAN? Then, in a serious adjustment of her position Amnesian states in her first long post: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18024&site=3
”But, you see, there’s the rub. (And again, I’m not talking about men who merely stay in the organization, but not as elders.) There is a difference between men who remain elders indefinitely and those who remain knowing they have a definite time in mind to resign while carrying out a plan as SL and LE were.” ... “Once an elder decides to become a “Silentlambs” or “Lee Elder,” he recognizes that that will be life-altering, his last “””kamikaze mission””” as an elder and likely a JW. It also means that he’s got the hormones most elders lack, no matter how conscientious and honorable they perceive themselves to be. They don’t remain elders with some vague notion of making things better for the relative few they happen to personally know. They remain for a specific time with a specific plan in the works that can help many. These are not the men one considers to be remaining as elders. - Big difference.”So now, from her first comments to Lee Elder where she made “””no allowance for any good intentions,””” she now changes this to now allow for some “””Kamikaze””” mission that “””can help many.”” She concludes, “Big difference.” Indeed, her altered position is a big difference, and makes the task of any discussion with her most difficult, like walking on ice, you never know if you are going to slip, slide, fall, or drop into the freezing cold gripe of insanity. Yet, while she praises Lee Elder as a “Kamikaze” in her second position, she totally ignores what Lee Elder really said his reasons for staying were:
Lee Elder just got through saying in the earlier post,
”Some of these folks are helping and can play an important role in moving the organization to where it needs to be. If I could have stomached it, I would have stayed longer. Most really do their very best. In some ways I still feel like I betrayed some of the members of my congregation by leaving them in the hands of oppressive wolves.” ... “I think we have to respect the choices that other elders make. In the end, we all accept the natural consequences of our choices. I see nothing to gain by second guessing others in this regard and hope that others don't judge me for way the I handled my situation. I did the best that I could, as I'm sure you did too.”Yes, Lee Elder would have stayed longer if he could have! Amnesian praises Lee Elder as though he never stated any such thing. Several other former ex-Elders, such as JT, also stayed to mitigate harm. JT plainly admits that it was his “singular” intention to stay to mitigate harm. And he stated some very realistic reasons how and why this can and does happen. Yet, not one word was said to him about this, nor was he classified along with my character! But now, with the flash of the hand, suddenly Lee Elder and others are given a free pass by Amnesian as she changes the focus of her argument. That is not intellectually honest. You cannot take a Lee Elder and praise one half of his discussion and dismiss that the same man with the same intent who also wanted to stay longer, and did stay longer in the religion to mitigate harm!!! Likewise, you cannot make a solid case by stating that there is no justification to stay, and then later on modify this to allow for some “Kamikaze” justification. Once you allow “”some justification,”” then other justifications become allowable. The world of Black & White moves from the tight reigns of fixed definitions to the wide open ranges and shades of Gray. The “DIFFERENCE between Amnesian’s narrow scope and mine, is that I am in the gray zone.
Amnesian’s position is to make a case that in her opinion is easy to say, but hard to implement in reality. She obligates JW Elders, now exempted for any “Kamikaze” missions, and says that otherwise they must leave the religion once they reach some state of “knowing” it is not the truth. They have a moral obligation to exit, because to do otherwise, means that they are supporting abuse and inflicting monstrous damage and atrocities on others. She says, “It is unconscionable to justify carrying out atrocities on trusting innocents.” PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS DECLARATION OF ATROCITIES AND MONSTROUS DAMAGE AS I REINTRODUCED IT INTO THE DEVELOPMENT OF HER LOGIC.
Earlier, Amnesian made an opposite set of statements yet once again, which shows that she may be unclear on what she believes, or is intellectually dishonest. In her last post on this, she attempts to say that I am stretching matters, in a clear attempt to head this off at the pass, but she cannot escape the weight and power of her own reverse logic: Let’s see how she does this:
Here is her post to Mulan on 12/17, just a little over week prior to my opening debate with her. It is very fascinating. I have “bolded” those points that seem to stand in stark contrast to Amnesian’s current rhetoric directed at me and ex-JW Elders in general:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17545&site=3&page=1.
Re: Did Crisis of Conscience damage you? Dec 17, 2001 12:55:
Marilyn, “My sense is that the vast majority of JWs who reach the point of deciding to read CoC have already begun to experience niggling-to-profound doubts and skepticism --- if not full-blown disbelief. It doesn't figure, at least to me, that one who is still a true-believer with faith wholly in tact would even consider reading such a publication. These, imo, are done no harm as they have already started to detect something fishy. That was the case for me, anyway. And once I read CoC, yes I did experience a deep sense of despair even while huge holes started to fill in around the areas I'd begun to have doubts --- the divine appointment and direction of the the gb, for starters.” ... “Would I have preferred not to know? No. The despair for me was that the book had been around for nearly 20 years --- and I had major doubts for the last 10 --- before I dared check it out.” ... “Otoh, although I believe that Ray was conscience/duty-bound to write CoC, I don't think that it need be read by all JWs, a great number of whom are probably no better or worse off being Witnesses and would probably despair beyond ability to recover if stripped of "The Truth" by being forced to face the truth. –AMNESIAN”
So, Amnesian condemns JW Elders, who do not have a “””kamikaze mission””” and are only choosing to stay with well intentioned ideas on reform or mitigate harm, and then she turns right around and tells us ... , I don't think that it need be read by all JWs, a great number of whom are probably no better or worse off being Witnesses and would probably despair beyond ability to recover if stripped of "The Truth" by being forced to face the truth. is, shear and total dual views, inconsistent with any argument she has advanced thus far, and is an insult to the many JWs being harmed by the ”abuse and inflicting “””monstrous damage””” and “””atrocities””” on others. She says, “ It is unconscionable to justify carrying out atrocities on trusting innocents.”
HOW, can she now say that JWs are no better or worse off remaining in the religion, but then condemn some Elders who feel that by remaining they are mitigating harm? Then she argues that such excuses are “unconscionable” but she feels a “great number” of JWs are “””no better or worse off””” for not knowing the truth about the truth. Which is it, and how can one say that the premise of her arguments is anything less than intellectually dishonest? How does one even hope to begin a discussion with her sense of reverse-logic? In her world positive is negative and then negative is positive, and then positive is positive and negative is negative! It keeps switching on and off like the blinking light and circular reasoning of the Watch Tower religion. The only thing I can do is highlight her duplicitous reasoning, and then throw my hands up in the air in utter amazement!
My position: A person can speak in platitudes and plausibility, as Amnesian does, and visualize a JW Elder who has determined that the WTS is not the truth, but then determines with malice of forethought by deciding that he will remain a JW Elder because he covets power, position, prominence, perks, prestige, privilege, and any number of other Ps as Amnesian used. Unless such a man steps forward and announces such deliberative intentions, there is no way for any of use to make such blanket judgments about their state of mind. I see many shades of gray in this. An Elder may read Crisis of Conscience and other critical works, and have a good sense of the serious flaws of the religion, even believing that it is not any ‘True” channel of truth, but still honestly seek reform or to mitigate harm. He may not be ready to leave, not due to some “Kamikaze” plan, but due to his family ties and friends, or his level of cognitive dissonance. If he has been a JW for 10, 20 or more years, he may have built an extensive social structure such that he has business considerations, family, children, and other relatives to consider. He may even reason as Amnesian did in her post to Mulan that many JWs are no better or worse off remaining in the religion. He may not have been a in a position where he saw the level of monstrous damage and atrocities as other JW Elders.
To expect that such a man must, upon reaching some level of knowledge ‘Amnesian style’, to instantly just walk away and sever all ties, risking the loss of everything, and possibly divorce, is to expect something of another human being that is unreasonable. I doubt few if any JW Elders act with such malice of forethought as suggested by Amnesian. I suspect that there is a large spectrum of states of mind in many Elders, with many variables, complexities, and Cognitive Dissonance that all impact what he thinks, feels, plans, waits, acts, reacts, reflects, intends, and finally decides to do.
Many have emailed me and said that they agree with Amnesian in parts and some with me in parts. This is fine. It is as it should be. We are all unique and different, and have various ways of seeing the world around us and assessing what we think is going on, and what we need to do or not do about it. I cannot, however, copy Amnesian’s arrogance by punctuating my position by spelling out the word “PERIOD” as she does to enforce her absolute, though dual opposing, views. I take the position that my view is one of many, and I cannot authoritatively claim to have THE answer “PERIOD” as Amnesian does. She is welcome to her opinion, because that is all any of this discussion is about – mere OPINION.
ARE AVERAGE JWs EQUALLY AS CULPABLE AS ARE JW ELDERS? I will make this point shorter and not get into quoting statements. On average, I agree that JW Elders are far more likely to be culpable of harm by virtue of the fact that they have access to, or direct first-hand knowledge of, serious wrongs. Chief among these discussed in the last year and a half is the shielding of child molesters among the ranks of JWs. Where an average JW gains the same knowledge, HOWEVER, her/his status of non-Elder is meaningless. She/He has an equal responsibility, as an adult, to take a stand by reporting this crime to the civil authorities. To argue that JW Elders would be more culpable because of position is not reasonable. Knowledge is knowledge, and adult responsibility cuts across any lines of rank, race, or gender. I have sat in courts long enough to know that such “excuse-itis” is not going to fly. In many states, neither clergy nor laity are required to report such crimes. However, many states have official policies that strongly encourage such reporting, and will even offer protection to informants. In Oregon, while still a JW, I reported such a JW molester, and the Sheriff’s Department placed me under such protection. Unfortunately, because I was already being labeled as an ‘apostate’ even before I was DA’d, the Elders suspected that I was the person who went to the authorities, and connected this to earlier complaints I made to them about the molester.
I agree that Elders do have the power to inflict harm because of their position as judge, jury, and prosecution in JW cases. And in this respect, I cannot make a case that the average JW can equal that level of Elder culpability in most cases. But, lets walk though this some more. Average JWs who are remaining in the organization as non-Elders were also given a free pass by Amnesian. Elders were her target. However, an average JW who does not believe in the religion and stays, but who also helps the Elders by reporting on others are themselves as culpable as the Elders that Amnesian speaks. Above, I already mentioned the one recent case where an Elder/PO was not in agreement with the organization and he confided in some non-Elder JWs about his doubts. These non-Elder JWs even agreed with him, but then turned around, went to the Elders and reported him. The CO and I believe a Bethel Elder got involved, and the PO was removed and DF’d for apostasy. I met with this man when he traveled to Chicago not long ago. So it can happen that average JWs who know the WTS is false, and privately say so, can turn around and act on behalf of the JW prosecution. Ray Franz alluded to this in Crisis of Conscience when he spoke of several events at Bethel and some surrounding congregations. So it can and does happen.
There are average JWs as noted above who know the religion is false, but stay quiet about any number of matters from fraud, molesting, adultery, theft, drunkenness, drug abuse, selling and distributing illegal drugs, etc. etc. etc. Once they have knowledge, then by Amnesian’s standards, depending on which standard of hers you select from the roulette of her conflicting arguments, these would be equally culpable. It was in this sense that I was making my argument, by extending her own logic, and by using just one of her stated positions. In my own opinion, it all depends on the state of mind of the average non-Elder JW, what they know, what facts they have, when they knew it, and other mitigating information and circumstances. Again, I just cannot be dogmatic and judgmental as Amnesian. Yes, it is opinion, and that is ALL it can be.
ONCE we jump from the broad and sweeping categorization Amnesian style, I agree that if we examine a specific case where we are armed with solid facts, then we can make a case mono-e-mono that a certain specific Elder has this or that state of mind. This is abundantly clear with the molestation cases where lawsuits are being filed against the Watch Tower Society and Elders who are named as co-defendants. Yes, NOW we have something tangible that we can all sit around and prognosticate to our hearts delight.
PART TWO: PERSONALITY AND CHARACTER ISSUES – THE REAL AGENDA: Reading Amnesian’s posts does reveal that she is after my character, or at least my character is the stepping stone for her bully pulpit against the JW system and its Elders as a Collective. She claims that I am condescending among other things. She quotes in one post my lead in phrase: “I must caution you” as evidence of my being condescending, and that she does not need me to “””think””” for her. I already defended the mitigating factors behind that phrase in my farewell post. Look at her own lead in phrase on her last post and see if she offers any improvement, and example of how to be better than the pompous Amazing:
”(Don’t let the title scare or piss you off. Stay with it to the end---even if it takes you a while---and then, if you wish, by all means get pissed as you wanna be. -AMNESIAN)”Amnesian does not leave our reactions to us, but with similar or greater condescension on her part, has to take it upon herself to warn us not to get scared at the title, as though the title “THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT” ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19077&site=3#235447) could possibly be some scary bombshell, like the movie “Psycho”, as though her title merits alarm for average adults who have common sense. Then, after directing to us to stay and read to the end, she then gives us permission, to you the reader, to get pissed off. Is she trying to control our emotions? Does she resent condescension in others, but somehow exempt herself, as though she is above being held to the standards she expects of me and others? Pleaseeeeeee Give me a break!
Her posts are littered with many character attacks aimed squarely at me. She refers to me as a Barney Fife in her first long post. When I agree with her on the point of power, she calls me patronizing. When I disagree, I am some self-deluded baboon. She leaves unchecked the comments about me being a coward, etc. And she does nothing to dissuade them by calling for fairness, or ask for restraint against personal attack. I am not going to get into an exhaustive round of “quote-for-quote” of everything she and others said. Read her post yourself and see the flavor in all her creative wit to paint me as some evil man, still a JW Elder in my heart, and speaking to my state of mind which she cannot possibly know.
She impresses people with her ability to write with wit ... I can’t argue with that. Charismatic leaders are often the funniest and wittiest speakers ... they charm people with peripheral dressy humor and wit that livens up their claims ... I can recall back when the Society used very spicy speakers at District Conventions, who possessed similar talents as Amnesian, to dress up the keynote talks they gave, and the crowds roared!!! Clapped!!! And Cheered!!! ... they loved it all ... they wanted more ... and if the speaker did a good job as part of a new book release, the JWs ran and pushed their way to the front lines to get their copy of ‘New Light” and “Spiritual Food.” But, the content of the message was flat, and lacked merit. The JWs were fooled by charisma ... nowadays, with dull and droning speakers ... at least by the early 1990s that became the case ... I am not sure why JWs buy books, but I suspect they do it out of routine and to have something for which to stand up and walk around so their posteriors will not be numb by dinner time.
Let’s look at more of the merits of Amnesian’s arguments:
AMNESIAN’S LARGER ISSUES AND ULTERIOR INTENTIONS ARE THE UNDERLYING THEME. Initially, I was fully prepared to carry on a debate with Amnesian regarding the issues, maybe even several rounds of long posts, I don’t know. I was emailed with advice from various sources who lurk and some even post here, that I was wasting my time with Amnesian. Some felt that I should try to just make amends and get away from the attacks on my character. I agreed with such advice, feeling others are wiser than me, and because I was not sure myself how I wanted to proceed against Amnesian’s duplicitous reasoning. So, I posted my ‘let’s be friends and make amends’ thread. This produced no response from Amnesian, and negative responses from others. Julie wrote a thoughtful post that made me change direction. (Had Julie maintained that style of balance, I would more likely have been persuaded to stick with it.) I started my long rebuttal, intended to be broken up into several posts, to make reading time shorter, and allow for some interim comments to be included. This backfired with all sorts of inane and ludicrous responses. So, I withdrew, and then eventually posted my Farewell. That post also prompted many comments from various views.
After stepping back and reading Amnesian's final post the other day, things started to become clear that more is involved than meets the eye ... that is ... more than the issues that started the discussion. There is good evidence that a larger agenda is at work, and anything I say on the issues will only be clouded by that agenda until it is exposed for what it is.
In her last post, Amnesian says near the beginning,
"Prior to my entering this discussion, having mostly lurked, I’d read, among the many other prolific and highly-regarded male and female posters here, most of Amazing’s many, many, many posts. Although I’d wondered at some of what he posted and disagreed with still other, I had, nonetheless, come to generally respect the online persona he obviously worked hard to cultivate and maintain."Amnesian admits to mostly lurking prior to this discussion. Her prior involvement as a lurker included reading “””most””” of my posts, that is: selecting and concentrating on me, one of just over 4,000 posters. I find that of all the people who post here, many, if not most are far better than I, more succinct, and introduce many more interesting topics. My only real claim to fame, if you will, are the Justice Series and the article on Freeminds about how I helped my family leave the JW religion. Many of my posts have dealt with the molestation issue, but SilentLambs has pretty much assumed that role, and I have stepped back. The balance of my posts on average are no better or worse than the average of others here. Yet, mine are singled out ... let’s see why:
Then in my recent brief post about making a response to Amnesian, Julie comments that she has been put off by me for many months (I think since last June or so) regarding a political discussion where, not me, but my male supporters, made her feel bad. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19292&site=3#238279 Somehow, this was translated to involve me too. Julie then deliberates that a large number of women on the board have the same negative feelings toward me, and they needed someone to speak out for them. That “Spokesperson” , judging this prima-facie given the sequence of events, appears to have been Amnesian, in Julie’s eyes. I will tie this together soon.
After starting off with some seemingly nice comments about me, Amnesian gradually changes tone, and says,
” Sometimes it came across a bit cloyingly for my tastes, but, always struggling to balance trust with the noisy cynic within, I, for the most part, rejected niggling suspicions and accepted Amazing’s as being the sincere stuff of a former JW elder who’d recovered appreciably from his WTS-informed stretch as a male JW and a JW elder regarding women and assorted gender issues.She is leading up to this transition from seeing me as a nice guy, to being a problem for her, and maybe for all womankind. She lays the groundwork smoothly enough, but something will pop out and expose her. After a long diatribe review of who said what to whom, and with all her creative writing skills now put to the test to embrace the reader at how she can dangle and tie phrases, and negotiate through many language hoops and loops, she starts to really engage us with her real agenda:
Speaking of me, she asks,
Had he grown from his JW elder view and “””treatment of women””” or, so to speak, did he merely talk the talk, but stumble in the walk? What happens today when a virtually unknown “JWD sister” saunters into the “JWD ‘KH’” and aggressively confronts and disagrees with one of its very prominent “elders?”Her writing, though creative, betrays her view of this forum and its participants. I, and other ex-Elder men are being transformed in Amnesian’s fictional fantasies into something we are not, nor ever have been; that is: Elders on the JWD Internet forum, which now in her mind is likened to a Kingdom Hall. She is creating an Alice-in-Wonderland environment in her mind that only exist in the magical Kingdom of Walt Disney ... recall ... where Alice, finds herself facing the royal court of playing cards animated to dance, march, and sing, but in true in legal fashion to judge her illicit presence in their pretend world Let’s see now how far Alice-Amnesian-in-Wonderland continues this exercise ...
She discusses my style, and then draws her conclusion:
” Long story short (okay, short-er---happy?), instead of continuing our dialogue in the existing thread, the one he had broken out from a previous one ---and unwaveringly true to his familiar strategy of debate, ---Brother Amazing called me out in yet another brand new thread, “Amnesian / Expose AVERAGE JWs,” and proceeded to upbraid me in a manner entitled the aristocracy in dealing with an uppity commoner.” ... “Or, more appropriately, in the manner of a proud, powerful, privileged, perked overseer needing to “adjust a Jezebel” to protect the congregation of God’s people against her impudence and failure to “tremble at glorious one.” ... “Remove the wicked [wo]man from among yourselves!” ... “Well, this was my interpretation of events up to here, anyway.”The only lucid moment here for Amnesian is where she admits all this is her interpretation. Yes, Alice-Amnesian-in-Wonderland it is all just your interpretation in your fuzzy dream world. No one was thinking of you as some kind of Jezebel ... you just didn’t like it that a Mannnnnnnnnn might not agree with you ... and if you set down your glass of scotch long enough, you will understand that it was and still remains a mere discussion between two people behind screen monikers. You do take yourself way too seriously!
Look VERY close at how she interprets events around herself ... and then ask yourself privately ... Would you want an Amnesian on your Jury were you being tried for a crime you did not commit? Would you feel any sense that Amnesian could be fair and impartial? Is she the kind of person you would want deliberating the facts in a case that affected your life and future? You don’t know? Thank Gawd this is not a real life Jury ... read on to see where her sense of justice really rests:
Just how far does this exercise go – what is her agenda?:
” So, it was at this point I decided to give full reign to the cynic within and conduct a little experiment on Brother Amazing, without his being any the wiser, of course. Nothing elaborate or meticulously orchestrated---merely a hazy, loosely-defined ploy, if you will, to see just what kind of “elder” he really is today, whether he is, in fact, the conquering hero of his “Justice Series” or something or someone …else.” ... “Was he the mostly-recovered, fully-enlightened former JW elder he perceived and portrayed himself to be or might the current Brother Amazing still have about as much spackling and patching to do as any of the rest of us---especially former overseers?” ... “Had he grown from his JW elder view and treatment of women or, so to speak, did he merely talk the talk, but stumble in the walk? What happens today when a virtually unknown “JWD sister” saunters into the “JWD ‘KH’” and aggressively confronts and disagrees with one of its very prominent “elders?”Is this about open discussion with me on the issues, or about seeking something more, something for herself, a trophy as it were, a Nobel Prize of JWD because of what she sees as a prominent de-facto JWD Forum Elder hiding amongst the ex-JWs, but still a JW Elder at heart. And the all-wise, all-knowing, and all-caring Amnesian is going to be the one to expose this evil Elder who she claims is a proud, powerful, privileged, perked overseer!
She now unfolds her pungent little scheme to make a demonstration that Amazing has you all hoodwinked, and that she as “””heroine””” comes to your rescue because she cannot let you think for yourselves. You need her, because you cannot make up your own mind. In her eyes, you are the abused little people in the JWD Kingdom Hall who has allowed Amazing, the Evil one, a “rock beneath your waters of truth” to slip in to draw away followers after himself. Why yes, she could not or would not take action in the JW world, but here, she can show what a mighty Princess-in-Arms can do when riding to the rescue on behalf of the little people! This is the arrogant and overriding theme of her proposal. – But wait, these is more ...
After continuing more image building, she eventually reveals true her intentions, though couched in catchy terms that might make it appear just an innocent little discovery on her part ... it becomes obvious that she desperately wants to make this a case of character assassination. Whether it is me personally, or using me as a vehicle to release all her pent-up JW tensions is anyone’s guess. ... but read more of what she says.
” Call it getting some of my own back for all the years I had to display “the quiet and mild spirit” that just so happens ---practical joke on me!---Jehovah's miscount left me without mine.” ... “So now it became Amzing’s image to burnish or tarnish. He could prove himself to be a standup “hawkaw” or “larc” or other exemplary males around here who have conducted themselves in truly manly fashion when set upon by this chick-on-a-soapbox-holding hogging the mic, or, even, he could further confirm himself to be the amazing “Amazing” of several installments of the “Justice Series.”You can make of me what you will. Were I to have coveted the power and perks she mentions, then certainly, it would have been far easier, and made far more sense, to have stayed in the religion, and continue to enjoy these “””Perks”””, and feel good about position, prestige, and any other P she can think of to roll off her sweet tender lips. Recall that one of the claims made against ex-JWs by the Watch Tower Society is that we are proud, seeking our own glory, pushing ahead, not being humble, and seeking our own followers. So, when we leave the WTS, our characters’ are assassinated from every angle possible. We could never really have been in the “Troof”, because if we were, we would not have left. ... NOW ... Amnesian’s development of what she thinks my character is, smacks of this same level of thinking. Notwithstanding, her claims defy logic. I left the religion. I tossed away 25 years worth of friends, social structure, and all the alleged Ps as in perks. I did not leave it there. I got my family out and a few friends. And have engaged in whatever I could do since that time to help others. I have gone through many changes, and find that I have no use for any organized religion, and barely have use for any kind of religion. But, somehow, in her magical mind, I am still a JW Elder at heart ... and she, as she said with humor, but still her stated intent reveals her own character ... ”Call it getting some of my own back for all the years I had to display “the quiet and mild spirit” that just so happens ---practical joke on me!---Jehovah's miscount left me without mine.” ... “So now it became Amzing’s image to burnish or tarnish.” A little bold, but Freudian slip there Amnesian ... maybe? Yes, use humor that will make them laugh, and still boldly and bluntly sell your elixir of snake oil and lizard spit! All very well done ... ala Watch Tower writing style – congratulation Amnesian ... very well done, indeed!
Before and after this next quote, Amnesian in her earlier post spells out P-O-W-E-R and other Ps to emphasize her point ... but often she focuses on power, or the lack thereof. Let’s take another walk through the Land of Legerdemain and see just what Amnesian has said about herself, and see what might be at the ROOT of her agenda:
”So let’s try this instead: For many of my years as a JW I held a high-profile, well-compensated, managerial position with a Fortune 500 financial services institution. In it I had a considerable span of control over some women and lots of big, strong professional men whom I could order when to jump and how high. The interesting thing, though, is that, because I don’t covet or get off on power, I usually didn’t have to order anybody to jump. Once they came to know I’d never, under any circumstances, lie to or mislead them or sell them out and came to believe that I meant it when I said we were truly fellow (team) workers and wasn’t just paying lip service to a lofty-sounding, over-used cliché, they couldn’t do enough to ensure we succeeded together. And if you think that means I was a pliable little girlie boss the boys used as their doormat, I can supply you with the phone numbers of a few of them with whom I am still in touch who will gladly disabuse you of this notion.” ...My point: My misery and A N G E R as a JW owed minimally to my being a “””powerless””” woman. I wielded plenty of power in my profession and had the guilty satisfaction of knowing I made way more money than easily 75% or better of the JW elders we knew far and wide and of knowing they knew it, too . I was generally treated quite “””deferentially””” because 1) I was my husband’s wife; and 2) As low a profile as I deliberately kept, the boys knew, I knew, and they knew I knew that their position “over” me owed merely to the happenstance of genitalia and nothing more. And if they wanted women like me to keep propping up their dry-as-gunpowder-and-twice-as-deadly Q&A stints, “”””””””they knew they daren’t ever piss me off””””””””.She claims to be a “powerless” JW woman ... but the Elders knew to “dare not piss her off.” ... But she was a powerless JW woman, ... but she had power because of her husband, ... but she was a powerless JW woman, ... but she propped up the Elders, even during her ten years of major serious doubts, ... but she was a powerless JW woman, ... but the Elders knew they had better not piss her off. She uses the word “Deferentially” to describe her relationship ... a word that means with respect and obedience! So, yes, she had the Elders obedient to her, scared to piss her off.
Is there any double reasoning there? Again, her underlying mantra is””” p-o-w-e-r”””. She is torn, by her own words, between thinking of herself as a powerless JW women, and her power over the Elders such that they dare not piss her off. Something was lacking in her social structure and personal fulfillment. P_O_W_E_R ... and she is trying to convince us she had it both ways! She tries to convince us that she was Super-Woman who never abused her power on the job – outside the JW world, but what is her preferred choice in using her writing skills here on JWD – outside the JW world? Slice and dice the personality and character of someone she disagrees with ... and vilify him to the extent that his entire existence on JWD is placed into question. The written word has power, sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword. Amnesian’s superintendence of such ‘power’ is then fair game to scrutinize.
She could never hope to make a case among the JWs by virtue of the inherently closed system of top-down rule. So, she spends months lurking on JWD, reading my many comments, studying my Justice Series, and then in a flash of forward moving progressive light ala Governing Body style, she lands on a thread that now allows her to carry out an “””experiment””” on me. For what? To do to me what she cannot do in the Kingdom Hall. YES, by her own words, “Call it getting some of my own back for all the years I had to display “the quiet and mild spirit” that just so happens ---practical joke on me!---Jehovah's miscount left me without mine.” ... “So now it became Amzing’s image to burnish or tarnish.”
I don’t mind if someone wants to banefully use me for their tirade. I have nothing to gain or lose. In forums like this one, anything said is open to review, debate, claims, counter-claims, points, counter-points, ad infinitum. No ranks, no glory, truly a free-no-collections-free establishment. In here there is no P-O-W-E-R, no prominence, no Eldership, no doctrine. All there is, is hard core reality. But somehow, she still finds her way to attempt to turn me into something I am not ... and adds in the cutesy “Brother Amazing”. More chiding, snide subtle sarcasm, insult. Oh, yes, carefully crafted and executed, likely a by-product from her creative writing classes ... all made to look very classy .... like a slick con-artist adding shine and polish on car that underneath is no longer road worthy – rusting and weathered as the weeks and years take their toll.
LAST, BUT NOT LEAST IN HER NOT WELL HIDDEN AGENDA, Amnesian tries to appear nice and cozy and cuddly, but then reveals an adjacent piece of her agenda about power. What could this be? Let’s see from her original post:
”That said, though, I bet I’d be one of your best friends and one you’d love to spar with if you knew the really marvelous, balanced person I am in real life. Perhaps you’re pretty swell yourself--- underneath that pompous, self-deluded veneer. Further down you mention your daughters and any man that loves, cherishes and trains daughters gets an automatic pass from me for many of his shortcomings. Not all, but many.”Thanks for the kudos about the way I raised my daughters. And I appreciate that you even allowed for the possibility that I might be a swell guy ... but then you say “underneath all the pompous self-deluded veneer.” This is where you have over-laid your own views of me, without knowing me. I used some words and phrases you did not like, and this triggered in you some strange image of me, one that is not true, that you built into a larger-than-life image for yourself – a golden calf which you could now boom down from your lofty mountain and condemn!. And somehow, I don’t think we would get along if we met, because once I was introduced to you, knowing you think I am pompous and self-deluded, it would be hard to make the effort to overcome that predisposition in you. Thanks, but no thanks.
After her feigned attempt to be nice to me, she then says something that is rather revealing that is an adjunct to her ‘power’ agenda:
”But, I will say, I guess I’ve missed some of your posts afterall, Amazing. I can't seem to recall your offering any of these sanctimonious little sermonettes to the manly-men who strongly-express their muscular, manly opinions---the AlanFs, Farkels, MadApostates, Kents and the other male “heavyweights” who contribute to this community. If it’s just been my oversight, kindly point me to these posts.”Ahhhhhhh .... so in addition to “””experimenting””” on me, springing in from the back stage, the quiet little lurker reading most of Amazing posts arrives in all her glory! Introducing Amnesian, The Dragon Queen who cuts men to size, she now includes others on her list ... because she does not find me sermonizing with them. So, now it becomes a “””gender””” issue, just as I noted how Amnesian’s comrade sported in her comments to me about my *Male* supporters. It is all quite clear now ... Amnesian the Wonder Woman of the 21st Century wants your balls guys! Look out! Amnesian, the wanna-be Lorraina Bobbit, is out with her sleek butcher knife! Cover your crotches!
And is there any mistake that her friends and supporters are unclear about battle lines gender? Look again at Julie’s recent round of comments:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19292&site=3#238279:
”There seems to be a real division here regarding you here Amazing. I am not one of the ones who hangs on your every word as you may have noticed but some do. What I have noticed is this: I am not the only one who seems to have been put off long ago by you and your way of expression. Do you think Amnesian's initail rebuttal post brought all those passionate feelings against you into existence? Or, do you think maybe, they saw someone who could more than hold their own with you take a stand and call you on some serious stuff?” ... “You may recall when you and I had I first go around on political issues, I do. It took a very mild smart ass remark from me to bring out lots our your *male* supporters to chide me for my attitude. Do you think that sort of thing may serve as a deterent for other women, some who may not say what they feel as boldly as I tend to, to speak their minds and call you on stuff Amazing? Doesn't this whole incredibly passionate reaction to Amnesian's hard-core smack upside the head to you make you wonder that maybe, just MAYBE, there have been many women who have felt the same as I or Amnesian and finally felt their feelings had been voiced? Doesn't this smack of fermentation to you? Just a little something for you to think about.”So, the agenda is not about the ostensible subject of Elder culpability, nor the culpability of average non-Elder JWs. It is about Amnesian the Wonder Woman coming to the rescue of her beaten and abused sisters ... who she and Julie must believe need someone, anyone, to represent them ... a voice in the wilderness ... to rush in with saving passion, and put the eeeevillll Amazing in his place! I think that Ginny Toskin, LaDonna, Outnfree, IslandWoman, GoldDustWoman and other women are doing very well in speaking for themselves ... and I doubt they need Amnesian or Julie or anyone else to speak for them!
Amnesian, I need not experiment on you, as you claim you did on me. You have done a very fine job of disrobing the backstage of your little play act, exposing your real intentions. Underneath all the glitter and wit are not ideas, nor solid substantive discussion, but just the stage show of creative words, like a Copperfield illusion, designed as a shell game to distract the audience from seeing how the trick is done. Looks classy, makes people clap and clamor, but deep down, they know it is a show, an actress performing to entertain. When they go home, what have they really taken with them? A ticket stub that ends up in the circular file ... and in time, a faded memory ... ahhh, who were those actors again? What was the name of the movie? Don’t think they will buy it when released on DVD.
In addressing my character I have heard from you and others that I am condescending, arrogant, cowardly, and even magnanimous (over done that is). I was not bothered that some would say this. Any of us could say similar things about anyone else on this forum or anywhere else in our daily lives. Rather, I was wondering what my friends and family think ... had I missed something that I still need to work on? Some friends and family agreed that my words can be taken in a negative way ... but all agreed that when people know me personally, they find that I am not at all that way. And when they read my words, they do not add in the tones and shades of meaning that you have. No, they know the heart and mind behind the words. It is their opinion that counts. It is their opinion that will write the words on my epitaph when I depart from life – not yours. Their words are what counts with me. Therein is where I find security – rooted deep in the love of people that love me, warts and all. The PC, these forums, are just an electronic world of bits and bytes flying around ... and in a stroke of a key ... poof! ... the show is over, on to other things. But real friends and family, that is something that stays with me 24 hours a day.
The only thing I wonder and worry about in this exchange is what some JWs with doubts are thinking ... lurking ... wondering what it is like on the outside of the Borg. What would any come away with in reading all that Amnesian, or I or others posted? I don’t know. I just wonder: are we helping them, or maybe causing some to stay with the religion because they see ex-JWs are at each other’s throats? ... tearing one another to shreds to vent some hidden psychological shame? Do we inspire them with constructive use of our new-found freedom? Or do we make the case for their Borg Leaders, that we are evil, satanic rebels who seek our own advantage?
Given the amount of Amnesian's duplicitous reasoning, it is obvious to me there is no debate, no way to arrive at any meaningful understanding where we might agree, or at least agree to disagree ... no, her reasoning is rooted in another dimension of fantasy, like the Twilight Zone, where all logic goes out the window. Her all-or-nothing views expressed in her first post, punctuated with her “PERIOD” are just unproven and unprovable opinions, not allowing for anyone else to hold equally valid but differing views. The balance of her journey through the Outer Limits is all about this fictional remake of Amazing ... attempting to strip off some outer shell to expose Amazing to be an Alien Insect underneath the human skin. Makes for nice fiction on TV, sweetheart, but does not hold muster in real life. All of it intended to win her a JWD Nobel Prize in writing, and raising herself up to Elderette on the back of me and others.
Amnesian is still new to the world of ex-JWs ... and in time, [/b] she will find that she is not elevated, and there is no pedestal holding her up as Champion Conqueror of Amazing – no she will find that it is all fanciful a phantasm; that this time it was not created by the illustrious GB of the Witch Tower ... but her own making. For there is no Amazing that needs to be shot down. And even shooting an Amazing does not grant you anything ... just mere target practice. Have at it kiddo. Wallow in it ... drink it ... swallow your own lines. Keep on firing back your arrows of wit, charm, and sarcasm ... go for it ... good for you! You go girl! Come and get ME!
I might post more on this or make lots of follow-up comments, maybe even a dreaded new set of threads that so offended Amnesian --- or --- I might do none of this --- ahhhh --- freedom at its finest, the liberty to change one’s mind --- how novel is that?. But, other than absolutely necessary clarifications, I make no defense, no apology, and no justifications for my opinion. I don’t care whether Amnesian reads this response and I don’t care if she responds. For all I know, she is gone with the wind. Amnesian - Suit your pea-picken little heart.
There are enough posts on this forum that every person can decide if they want to invest the time to read and develop whatever opinions they wish hold. This has been posted for the record, and for me that is all that it can serve. There are many classy women and men who can make far superior analysis of this and other posts than I could dream of doing. I am sure I will read what they have to say, because I trust and respect their mental grasp and ability to ferret out good points, and leave all sides feeling the better for it. These are people of real class, genuine hearts, who do not need to burnish and tarnish others ... they stand in their own right, and honor others with equal dignity.
This has been an Amazing ride in the Wonderland of Amnesian aka Sister Snow-White Elderette and her cute cuddly little Dwarfs. There are no winners here, not even losers. Just a roller coaster of words cascading onto the shores of an Internet Island in the world of electronic bytes ... a no-boundary-land that is always there and everywhere ... where the sands of millions of words rushing up with the tide of new posts wash away the pretend little castles of great flame wars and speeches that few really read, and even fewer remember ... and Amnesian, like so many others can find herself simply fading away out to sea.
AMNESIAN’S LEGACY: In our everyday lives, outside the PC world, what we do each day, every word, every decision, and every act places another brick in the architecture of our lives ... and builds the Legacy that we each leave behind. Sometimes, if we are fortunate enough, we discover some misplaced or broken materials, and make adjustments in our lives. Hopefully, we will make it through life without having to face the big ‘One ... Oh Shit mistake... that wiped out 1,000 atta boys!’ [/b] – like the kind of thing we saw with the remarkable OJ Simpson who forever ruined what could have been a prodigious legacy. Hopefully, any flaws, warts, and mistakes will be forgotten, and our lives will be remembered for the good we did, the hearts we loved, and the people we embraced. Upon leaving the JW religion, our choices are no longer governed by the dictates or the men who run the organization. Every choice and act becomes our sole and individual responsibility. We can no longer point fingers at men or women or any organization, because they have been removed from our lives. All the fingers point right to each of us.
Look at the quality of many women and men who are ex-JWs. [/b] Do they come out of the Watch Tower Society to slash and burn others around them? No, we only have to look at good people like Ros, who not only gave much in support to BRCI, the Beacon Website, but she helped greatly with the production of Crisis of Conscience. Look at Marilyn Zweiful, who operates the Why-1914 Helpline. She is a professional counselor. She does not come out to assassinate characters ... but she is there to support JWs leaving the Watch Tower religion and deals with each new situation with all its variables and complexities that make it unique to that individual. There are many other men and women who work behind the scenes to hold gatherings, provide information, who help finance projects. We can name Ray Franz for his tremendous contributions to truth, along with Randy Watters, Carl Olaf Jonnson, Peter Gregerson, Ron Frye, and many more.
Look at the JWD forum, we see excellent research, humorous analysis, gut wrenching experiences, reports of serious events, and many more great contributions ... look at the list of high class individuals, GoldDustWoman, Ginny Toskin, LaDonna, IslandWoman, Outnfree, Wasasister and many more great women who do not destroy with ‘slice and dice’ and 'slash and burn' programs ... but who take their rightful, equal, liberated stand on issues. Thier station is not gained by whining about gender issues, but in the richness of their person. We have AlanF, JanH, Kent, SilentLambs, LeeElder, Larc, Simon, Englishman, Farkel, and so many more that I cannot name them all ... good people who make positive contributions ... their legacy is found in what they give, not what they destroy. [/b]
What, then, is Amnesian’s legacy? She has so much talent, experience, and skill. How does she use it? How will she use it in the future? Is coming in to destroy me, or show me up, or create a dismissal of any of my contributions going to leave Amnesian a lasting legacy? Is this what Amnesian will finally stand for? The choice is hers, the actions and reactions she has are her responsibility. Her Legacy is what she makes of it.
TO GO OUT ON A NOTE OF HUMOR: [/b] After a two year study, the National Science Foundation announced the following results on Corporate America’s recreational preferences. [I have crossed compared this to the Watch Tower Corporate ladder] The sport of choices are:
1. [New Bible Study] Unemployed or incarcerated is: BASKETBALL
2. [Publisher] Maintenance Blue Collar workers: BOWLING
3. [Pioneers and Ministerial Servants] Front Line workers: FOOTBALL
4. [Elders] Supervisors: BASEBALL
5. [Circuit, District, and Branch Overseers] Middle Management: TENNIS
6. [Governing Body] Corporate Officers: GOLF
(Didn’t Amnesian say that she was a big corporate executive boss for a fortune 500 company?)
Conclusion: [/b] The higher up you are in the corporate structure, the smaller your balls become. I am glad I stopped at Elder and got out of the organization with at least my Baseballs and Bat intact.