AMNESIAN - THE LEGACY

by Amazing 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    TJ,

    I think it's interesting (and perhaps overlooked) that in Milgram's study—yes, the majority failed the test—a sizable minority didn't, giving evidence of a different mindset that exists in the minds of quite a few of us. Could that exact same ratio be projected onto every set of humans? For example, elders?

    This is a interesting point and one which I suspect makes XJW's feel a little uncomfortable.

    You see, those of us not raised as JW's allowed ourselves to become JW's, but most people who are preached to do not. My sister and I sat on the same sofa, listened to the same message, she chose to dismiss what she heard, I listened and became a JW.

    At the time this was a major ‘marketing ploy’ with the JW who studied with me, who extolled my virtues as an ‘obviously spiritual thinker’ while my sister was not. It appealed to my youthful vanity to accept this view and bathe in the spotlight, and I was reeled in.

    Something within us allowed the WTS to grip our hearts and take over our thinking processes and this does not happen to many people. Perhaps if we spent more time understanding why this happened it would help us to understand the culpability issues with more clarity, and indeed honesty.

    As to elder culpability, an elder has been a publisher, and this seems to have been forgotten in the culpability merry-go-round. Women have never been elders, neither have MS or congregation publishers. Many speak from a pre-supposed platform, and possibly hope that all elders are evil monsters building power bases, as they then become easier to blame than to analyze. Of course some are monsters, but for as many monsters that I met in my twenty years as an elder, there existed many more decent men, trying hard to make sense of a situation where individual will is meaningless when you have a WTS hand shoved painfully up your nether regions and working you as a glove puppet. It is over these issues, more than doctrine, that I saw many elders resign.

    In my experience, elders are soft-target set up by the WTS to unquestioningly carry out its wishes. Once you are en elder and you see the soft underbelly of the WTS your fate is sealed. You either acquiesce or you battle. Having been a ‘battler’ for almost all my years as an elder, while I naively hoped to effect some positive changes in WTS policy by my staying at my station, I can tell you it brings much pain with it. Resign and you are demonized and stamped as a spiritual pariah.

    I was removed many years ago for questioning WTS doctrine, ( doctrine which has since changed to the view that I expressed ). The telephone stopped ringing, ‘friends’ switched venue. My wife and I were not invited to eat in the homes of people who once viewed us a friends. It was a lesson worth learning. Milgram’s work had much to say when dealing with this kind of psychology. Even at the time, I did not blame the individuals involved, I recognized that their behavior was due to a carefully manufactured mindset.

    Even today, I can honestly say that I harbor no ill-feeling toward any JW, whatever their ‘position’, even the ones that tried to harm me. I view them as ‘systemised’, people with only partial control of their thinking faculties. That is why, on this Board I refuse to become a JW basher. That option is far too easy, makes little difference to the WTS, and actually precludes our having to do the important job of discovering what exists within us that allowed us to fall for WTS cunning and yet others not to fall.

    When things go right, the WTS takes the credit, when things fail it is the elders as Brown would say, that have ‘screwed up’.

    Thanks TJ - HS

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Amazing,

    I agree with part 1 of your post.

    If Amnesian is unable to let it go, so be it let her wallow in her thing.

    IW

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Amazing,
    Quite a piece of work! In a battle of wits, both you and Amnesian are very well armed! Nobody has commented on your joke at the end; it was verrrry humorous. Thanks!

    Hillery,
    Your point about us allowing ourselves to be Jws is so good. If we who converted as adults don't own our own responsibility, then we are helpless, hapless victims. And it continues to harm us. So, imho, we have to examine the motives and reasons we were duped. Then we become strong and can be 'en guarde!'

    Pat

  • teejay
    teejay

    Didn’t Amnesian say that she was a big corporate executive boss for a fortune 500 company?

    And didn't I say that I never made it past publisher?

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy tj,

    For any woman here, to latch onto another person here, particularily without knowing them well, is faulty reasoning. - waiting
    Now THAT is a scary thought: that there are actually women (people) here who really need someone to latch on to before they can decide how to make their minds up on this issue, whether they know the person well or not! -tj
    I didn't say the woman NEEDED someone to latch on to - I said that for any woman to do that is faulty reasoning. I didn't even say that any woman actually did that here. Women (and men) enter into marriages, living with opposites, etc., on a regular basis out of a need to latch onto someone else, and imho - that's faulty reasoning on their part.

    However, I should amend my statement to include men, as we can all latch onto people instead of trying to think our ways through them. It's a common problem, and I'm not immune to it either.

    waiting

  • teejay
    teejay

    Waiting,

    No, you *didn't* say that "the woman needed someone to latch on to." *I* didn't either. What I said was that it was a scary thought if there WAS such a person. And to me, it is.

    Above, Amazing made the statement (that you earlier quoted): " There are enough posts on this forum that every person can decide if they want to invest the time to read and develop whatever opinions they wish hold."

    Using that as a backdrop, you said: "For any woman here, to latch onto another person here, particularily without knowing them well, is faulty reasoning. That was part of our problem within the WTBTS in the first place...we didn't take time to think things through ourselves and establish our own thought abilities." You seemed to draw a contrast between those that have to "latch onto" a persuasive debater and those who take the time to "think things through for themselves." You missed it but I was agreeing with what I thought was your point.

    What you said made me... I say "me"... think of the possibility of an individual who really has no opinion but after reading posts on a discussion board and being persuaded, develops one. (I thought that is what YOU were saying, also.) Others can help us to clear our thinking—I think that's what Amazing meant—but the idea that the core of someone's opinion comes from someplace other than their own mind is a little frightening to me. If such a person exists, that one is ripe for indoctrination, still a little too dependent on the persuasiveness of the argument they hear.

    I don't care what anyone says... that's a scary thought TO ME.

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    I'm glad you're back too, Amazing. Don't let such thing bother you so much.

    As to the issues that were involved, I felt pretty much as you did, but probably for another reason that was not based on the arguements put forth. I can sum it up in one phrase: free moral agency.

    There is a common theme that runs throughout the Bible of guarding one's thinking abilities, striving for insight, wisdom, and knowledge, etc. The description of the arrangement during the time of the judges is very enlightening, as it demonstrates the manner in which our creator desired us to function --- freely, using our own insight and reasoning powers.

    One of the greatest mistakes the Society has made is in trying to boil everything down to a "one size fits all" body of teaching, thereby eliminating any need for (and many times forbidding) our using our own judgement. That has no basis in scripture at all.

    What Amnesian was doing was similar. She was creating a "one size fits all" policy concerning a situation that is extremely personal for thousands of others. How has she come to believe that she has such wisdom? Also, how could she escape the (accurate) accusation that she was in danger of judging other's hearts? They know their own situations. She doesn't.

    Again, don't be discouraged by such things. You have contributed much here and elsewhere, and those contributions are the type of things that the Society dread the most.

    Amnesian --- Don't be angered by my words. Think about them a bit, then come back and share more of your thoughts. You certainly have the ability to help, and if you can come to the point where your help compliments the effort of others rather than obstruct it, it will be quite effective.

    I suppose there will be some interpreting my words as telling you to get back where you belong. They need to grow up and quit being so paranoid. All I am saying is that we need to know what the others are doing so as not to be working at cross purposes and/or duplicating other's efforts. Plus, no matter how smart and informed we are, others know things we don't. By having the patience and consideration to see where they are coming from and why, it will many times save us from "striking the air".

    Finally, we live in a culture where power itself is suspect, and those who have it are condemned, not for using it wrong, but simply because of the fear that they will use it wrong. That is one of the reasons that the elders/ex-elders on this board are hammered so much. I would suggest that we should pay more attention to HOW they use that power, and be thankful they have it when they use it correctly.

    Take Amazing for instance: One of the reasons that he was condemned was due to the things that he had done as an elder. Yet that very thing was the entire impetus for the series that he wrote. He was trying to do something to make up for some of those things. Should he not be encouraged rather than condemned?

    Take care, all.

    LoneWolf

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Thanks Lonewolf for the great points. This issue was complicated by mixing in the character attacks. This is not the first time that someone made personal attacks on me, but it was the first time for me that it reached the level where it became a major feature of a post. Anyway, I hope that Amnesian will move on to other things, and that she can focus her tremendous talent into issues, and make positive contributions. Thanks again.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit