Appears to be another case of "shifting the burden."

by garyneal 54 Replies latest jw friends

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  garyneal

  debator,

  I'll just simply ask you the same question I asked my wife last night. Who sets the standard regarding what pagan practices are acceptable and what aren't? Let's say you're right and God would not want to participate in a birthday party because it was somehow rooted in idolatry. Would that same God also participate in a pinata beating party when the pinata also had its roots in idolatry?

  I've never known God to be that inconsistent.

  Further, in regards to my 'religious convictions' that I want my wife to respect, let's see. She and her religion condemn mine as false, babylonish, says that the cross is pagan and idolatrous, the trinity is false, stain glassed windows depicting Jesus is also idolatrous, etc.. She and they were doing this for years until I began to learn the truth about the 'truth.' Now they just want me to agree to disagree and leave the subject alone.
• 

  PSacramento

  Hi psacra

  Paul was talking about specific Jewish celebrations that Jehovah himself had allowed mentioning sabbath this is not the same as taking on pagan practicies which has always been condemned biblically.

  He was directing his letters to gentiles and people dealing with gentiles.

  1 Peter 4:3-4 (New International Version)

  3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.

  Paul makes it clear there is no allowance for taking on or to keep doing pagan ways and that part of being a Christian is giving them up. That includes pagan celebrations now that would include drunkeness etc.

  And yet neither Paul nor Peter say "DON'T CELEBRATE BIRTHDAYS", yet they say all that other stuff.

  Dude...seriously now.

  If they ruled out all that had pagan origins, JW's wouldn't have honeymoons, wedding bands, anniversaries, Baptizims, Kingdom Halls, and so much more.
• 

  garyneal

  debator,

  What happened? Can you answer my question?
• 

  Chalam

  1 Peter 4:3-4 (New International Version)

  3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.

  debator Paul makes it clear there is no allowance for taking on or to keep doing pagan ways and that part of being a Christian is giving them up. That includes pagan celebrations now that would include drunkeness etc.

  Who says birthdays are pagan? The WT?

  The bible certainly does not say celebrating one's birthday is "pagan".

  You are assuming that all birthday celebrations lead to drunkenness which is plain wrong and also judgmental.

  Heed the words of Paul and Jesus

  Romans 14:5 (New International Version)

  5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

  Matthew 7:3-5 (New International Version)

  3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  steve2

  Per your first sentance, you indicate that it's okay for the non-Jew to cook pork, though his Jewish spouse will avoid it (and probably be vocal about the violation of Jewish law in their house) but then you turn around criticize the non-JW spouse for wanting celebrate their own birthday when they know it's against JW law...

  Undercover, it is possible that I may not have explained what I meant clearly enough: By all means celebrate your birthday - just don't make it an occasion for using emotional blackmail to your JW spouse (for example, "I'll just have to arrange my own birthday party myself..."). Yes, you will - it goes without saying. Nothing surprising there, just like you'd have to fry your own bacon if your spouse was a Jew, Muslim, Seventh-Day Adventist, Mormon or some other pork-eschewing individual.

  I grant that there are lots of emotionally meaningful memories and needs based around birthdays and their observance and that makes it more difficult for some. However, it is simply a specific instance of religious differences within a marriage that need to be accommodated or problem-solved - and if they cannot be problem solved???? - I guess that's over to the respective parties involved.
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  garyneal

  Steve2,

  Yes, it goes without saying that I would have to fulfill that 'need' myself, but did you miss my first response where I stated that the whole reason that example was given was because my wife forbade me to go to my sister's house where she wanted to do something on my birthday?

  I suppose you're right in that it did seem a little 'in your face' but I at least hope you understand the reason why I used the example. Guess I will be more careful in the future what I say to my wife.

  I swear, why do I feel like I have to repeatedly walk on egg shells around witnesses?
• 

  PSacramento

  I swear, why do I feel like I have to repeatedly walk on egg shells around witnesses?

  Beacuse they feel they can say whatever they want and however they want but when you do the same, you "hurt" their feelings and are being unreasonable and controlled by Satan.
• 

  garyneal

  (for example, "I'll just have to arrange my own birthday party myself...")

  Steve2,

  Still no response? Oh well, another hit and run on my thread.

  Debator,

  Where are you?
• 

  steve2

  the whole reason that example was given was because my wife forbade me to go to my sister's house where she wanted to do something on my birthday?

  Hi Gary,

  Yes, I had missed this part and acknowledge it changes the picture. respect needs to go two-ways, with you respecting her beliefs and her respecting yours. Religiously divided homes can be extremely tense places - unless the couple have a mutually healthy respect for each other's right to have their beliefs. Your situation sounds very difficult and it would be remiss of me not to take this into account.

  I notice you subsequently sent off another response, wondering where I had gone. I am many things - but I am not nor have I ever been a hit and run responder. I have just opened up this again (I'm presently at my place of employment so opportunities for accessing the internet are contingent on morning breaks). Sometimes I may go for days on end without visiting this site - but it is never intended as a personal response.

  Go well
• 

  garyneal

  Thanks Steve2,

  You did get me to thinking about one thing though. I do think you are correct in that there is emotional blackmail going on in our marriage and admittedly it does go both ways (I'm guilty of it too). It is difficult as our marriage is interfaith and I am just trying to deal with the new rules concerning our marriage. Sorry about the hit and run response, though I still think it applies to debator. :)

  I'm at work too and I am heading home in a few minutes. I plan to take my wife somewhere special this weekend, we need that.

  Wish you well.