eyes wide shut, you explain it very, very well.
BTS
Sola Scriptura
by dieselman 106 Replies latest watchtower bible
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PSacramento
Another example is that, in Scripture Jesus Says that NONE will be above anyone else, all will call Jesus Lord and Master because that is what he is, but all will be "slaves" to each other, with no one any higher than the other, all serving each other equally.
Yet, we see the WT following the traditions of the early church ( after the apostles died) with a GB, overseers, and such.
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Perry
Yet, we see the WT following the traditions of the early church
The WT is patterned after the Catholic Church, almost identical with its concentric rings of authority.
The ONLY biblical authority in Scripture is Pastors and Deacons (elders and ministerial servants) .....Period
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Deputy Dog
eyes wide shut
The essence of that definition would mean that the WT believes the Bible is the foundation for its reasoning and authority. There is nothing in the above definition that one would need another person to understand it or not.
The problem with this is, what they say and what they do (in this case what they don't do). There are plenty of cases where the WT teaches people not to believe what the bible actually says. The very fact that they can't teach their doctrine without THEIR bible, should tell you that there is a problem.
A perfect example is the way they selectively translate the Greek word "kurios" in THEIR New Testament as Jehovah. Or where they add the word "other" to the text (of THEIR bible) in Colossians to change the meaning.
On this basis they do believe in Sola Scriptura. In other words no other source points to them as being God directed except the Bible, based on their own interpretation. No tradition, nothing else. They only use the Bible to identify themselves. Therefore, only Sola Scriptura for them.
No other source? Are you kidding me. NOT even the NWT says or points to THEM.
This is another perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Nowhere in any Bible or translation of any bible does it EXPLICITLY say that God directed or directs the WTBTS. NONE 0 ZERO ZILTCH I dare any JW to make that statement at the KH. They won't be a JW very long after.
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eyes wide shut
No other source? Are you kidding me. NOT even the NWT says or points to THEM.
This is another perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Nowhere in any Bible or translation of any bible does it EXPLICITLY say that God directed or directs the WTBTS. NONE 0 ZERO ZILTCH I dare any JW to make that statement at the KH. They won't be a JW very long after.
I agree with you. I am making the statement on the principle of Sola Scriptura not on an actual fact.
This whole question is a fallacy and can't be pinned down.
They WT Organisation believes in their own constructed authority in which they solely rely on the Bible. However, they believe that their members must rely on them and that sola scriptura does not apply to the faithful but must resort to something beyond the scriptures and that is them as holding the correct understanding.
Sola Scriptura for them but not for you or others. Fallacy!
The fallacy is if it is Sola Scriptura then it is for everybody not just someone. Someone can't claim Sola Scriptura for themselves otherwise it is something different like tradition or authority. So we are left going round in circles.
Example: CT Russell, the one starting the Org, reasoned he could interpret the scriptures. Therefore, he did not believe in any other authority, or go through for him. Therefore, Sola Scriptura in all its essence.
Later Rutherford began to give the people the idea that one needed the Organisation to understand things. Therefore, not Sola Scriptura, something else, an authority or go between. But that is the fallacy one cannot claim ultimate authority over something that belongs to all in principle or one began in principle.
Its like saying I can have my cake and eat it too. Fallacy!
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dieselman
Very nice response eyes wide shut, and thank you for sticking to the topic. Of course that is a subjective opinion. Its entire premise is based on if you are indeed correct, and presupposes that your opinion is fact, which it is not, it is only your opinion, and the opinion of the source you quote. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see that at least somebody is getting the point. Almost.
Back to the point, I suggested that the WTS supports the principle of Sola Scriptura, which is evidenced in their explanations of prophecy. (This is in my opinion, and the rest of this paragraph is fact) However I was originally responding to the statement made by yknot where he said that the WTS does not believe SS, and in terms of HIS definition I do agree. Of course in his mind he was suggesting it as a negative thing, whereas I showed it is a positive thing. Aside from the example at Acts (and for the person who said I was not quoting scripture, have you found the shallow end yet?) there is the case to be made that understanding of scripture cannot be made without holy spirit. Not a single person in this forum can honestly refute that, and if they do, it would be hardly worthwhile to continue any discussion with them. I am not going to set out proving that holy spirit is needed to understand scripture, its quite obvious. (fact) What I do find odd is the forum opinion is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not individually all have the priviledge of access to the power of holy spirit just like any person on this planet. It is evidently even the opinion of those who formerly were or some who currently are JW, and apparantly that this is a unique domain for the GB only. Just so that all are informed, God is not partial, (fact)the holy spirit is an equal opportunity for all (fact). I have already expanded on that particular aspect in a previous comment and will categorically refute any suggestion to the contrary. The question is, are we(plural) benefitting from it. That is for us all to verify for ourselves, and we should invite God to inspect us (fact). If you think you stand up to his inspection then good for you (fact). JW's do not judge and neither does the GB (fact), and neither do they think that they do (fact). Once again, I will categorically refute any suggestion to the contrary and put it down to pure ignorance or obstinance. We all know who will do the judging. All the JW's do is publish their opinion of what God's message is (fact), and as a group, they like to think that it is the correct one, just like any other group likes to think that theirs is so too (fact). And much like individuals on this forum, they also like to think that their opinion is correct, except of course for the comedic lack of unity in the opinions of this forum (fact). Does that sound scripturally familiar.
To answer Titus, I am a 2nd generation, secularly further educated, JW, in my late 40's, df'd for many years and reinstated. I will not be discussing any further personal circumstances with anyone, so dont bother to ask. Suffice it to say that my experiences have allowed me to see things rather differently, and I am extremely greatfull to have had the oppurtunity to make an examination of many things with a broad mind. Further narrowminded arguments against my opinion and the facts above can be made amongst yourselves, however none would sway mine just as I am sure mine will not sway most here, and none will change the facts. You (plural) can misquote and take out of context all you like, the facts still stand. The WTS and JW's do use scripture to explain scripture, and they do not believe that a person can independantly understand God's Word, only by Holy Spirit and someone to assist, both of which are clearly scriptural facts.
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eyes wide shut
The way the WT skirts around the Protestant tradition (no pun intended), of Sola Scriptura is they understandably view the Bible for everyone in which someone is chosen to become the authority. Therefore the Bible was written for everyone but only one person or Organisation will be given authority to make the readings known to the masses.
They had to make themselves in some way the authority. They realized that the Catholic church, for example was the original and oldest and that her authority stood on Tradition, Apostolic succession. They needed a way to mock this and create an authority. They also wanted more control than the Protestants. They wanted to stand out and be different. Thoughts of mine, not asking to agree or disagree.
So cleverly, I think they used and twisted some scriptures to create this illusion and so-called power that the Catholic church had.
Yet the JW's don't realize they stand on the same ground as all other religions. And that is how does one identify the basis of truth in the Bible when all others have different interpretations? If, the concept of an authority does exist (which I personally don't), then how does one identify that authority? What then happens is they make that choice and they are trapped, or as Don Cameron entitled his book, they are, Captives of a Concept.
However, that is another tangent.
Still a fallacy!
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Titus
Thank you for your answer, Dieselman.
I respect your opinion, and agree with you on many points.
We can discuss it more, but next time, not now. I am going to sleep.
Good night!
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Perry
dieselman,
Let's pretend that I'm the Ethopian Eunuch and you're Stephen Philip. Got it? Ok
You see me reading a Watchtower with a look of befuddlement on my face. I then ask you to help me understand how a person can get his sins forgiven without Jesus as his Mediator as the WT teaches.
And .... You say what?
If you can't answer this question, why on earth would you continue to go to the KH? Doesn't it seem rather hypocritical to attempt to teach others in field service when you can't even answer this question for yourself?
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Titus
Perry, it wasn't Stephen. It was Philip.
LOL