Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan 154 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  boyzone

  Debtor

  Where's the rest of Deut 18? Quote the whole scripture - not just the part you like.

  How about the part where Jehovah shows us how to recognise a false prophet.

  “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

  You see? It simply says that if a prophet CLAIMS to speak for Jehovah and the words don't come true, he's a false prophet.

  By the bible's own definition the WT Society CLAIM to speak exclusively for Jehovah and their words HAVEN'T come true - they are false prophets.

  Its not rocket science.
• 

  debator

  Hi boyzone thankyou for quoting the rest.

  I could have put it all together but you are just taking your scriptures out of context. You are saying that verse 18 the context setting for the next scriptures which you quote doesn't have to apply but it patently does!

  note even your quote says " I have not commanded him" clearly refering back to verse 18 where God is speaking directly to him.

  I could also proof text scriptures ignoring the context. Duet 18:18 is the context for the whole chapter these false prophets will claim to be inspired actually being able to say words they got from God directly and I repeat all jews new this about deut 18 and also it is a prediction for the messiah on how to recognise him.
• 

  Chalam

  Hello brotherdan :)

  Any advice for our next convo would be awesome.

  Here's mine

  John 15:5 (New International Version)

  5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

  Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

  12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  Mark 3:27 (New International Version)

  27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

  These are for your wife

  John 14:6 (New International Version)

  6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

  Philippians 2:5-11 (New International Version)

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
  8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  and became obedient to death—
  even death on a cross!
  9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
  and gave him the name that is above every name,
  10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
  in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
  11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
  to the glory of God the Father.

  Footnotes:

  1. Philippians 2:6 Or in the form of
  2. Philippians 2:7 Or the form

  Revelation 1:8 (New International Version)

  8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

  Revelation 1:17-18 (New International Version)

  17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

  Revelation 2:8 (New International Version)

  8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
  These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

  Revelation 22:12-13 (New International Version)

  12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

  Romans 10:9-13 (New International Version)

  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [ a ] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [ b ]

  Footnotes:

  1. Romans 10:11 Isaiah 28:16
  2. Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  boyzone

  Debator

  " I have not commanded him" clearly refering back to verse 18 where God is speaking directly to him.

  You're missing the point. I haven't taken the scripture out of context. Verse 20 is asking a question on how to identify a false prophet and Jehovah gives the answer. The Society fit the criteria in every detail.

  The Governing Body CLAIM to speak for Jehovah. Thats what they do. They claim that God Spirit-directs their words and actions so that Jehovah "speaks" directly through them - and only them.

  You know this is true, and I can bring up many Watchtower quotes that prove this is what is said. Why are you making this more difficult that it needs to be?

  I guess I know why - it show up your personal need for the Watchtower to be right. Have you got much invested in this religion? Family? Years of service? Friends? Status?

  All this is in jeopardy if you dare to admit the Society are a false prophet Organization. The cost can be high can't it?

  Well, sorry dear brother but the Society IS a false prophet Organization by their own definition and by the bible's definition, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will change that.
• 

  Black Sheep

  Debator

  ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’ WT April Fool's day 1972 starting page 197

  The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6, 7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.

  Make sure you read, and comprehend, the whole article.
• 

  wobble

  Dear BrotherDan,

  I haven't time to read all of this thread, I should have been working ages ago,so this may have been said.

  Your wife's friend was disturbed by the duplicity shown in the Mexico business, this may be the trigger for her to examine things, everybody is different, but just ask her Pauls question about "What fellowship does truth have with lies ?"

  It is called the truth over and over again, by proven liars. ( See also their lies to the Bulgarian authorities about Blood Transfusion, very cleverly done, but a clever lie is still a lie)

  I also urge you to BE CAREFUL ! I was assured by a M.S that our convo. was in confidence, but he blabbed and so I got the 2 Elder visit, they didn't pin it on me though, so I am just "inactive".

  What I have done since, is make sure only one person hears what I say, then tell them if they break confidentiality I will deny I ever said it.

  The one question no Elder or R&F witness has ever been able to answer is :

  "What doctrine that was unique to the Bible Students/JW's in 1919, that is still taught today, and so is truth, did Jesus see and approve that caused him to choose them as the FDS in 1919?"

  Of course there isn't one, so why else would he choose them ? If they were not chosen in 1919 , how come they are the FDS today ?
• 

  debator

  Hi boyzone

  They claim to be administrators which is allowed scripturally.

  1 Peter 4:10
  Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.

  1 Peter 4:11
  If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

  Speaking as administers for Jehovah as shepherds given authority by his son is not the same as Speaking TO God directly being inspired and having him speaking directly to you.

  Duet 18 is dealing with the situation of the prophets that speak to God directly and he spoke to them and tell these very words of God to others. Indeed are claiming to be inspired of God. This is a specific thing that Jews knew about and in fact all about how books got to be part of the bible and which ones didn't. Hense why the Bible is literally called "God's word"

  It is dishonest to then stretch this chapter to cover what people who have never claimed inspiration to say. If this were to apply to more than inspired words directly from God it would mean Nathan and the apostles where false prophets which clearly they are not.

  You cannot just take Duet 18:20 out of the context of it's setting which is refering to people that are inspired of God that is dishonest.

  Witnesses have never claimed inspiration unlike other Christian groups aka Pope (papal infallibility) and Born again Christians (that say they can do prophecies specifically from God) mormons (that claim new writings from God in their book of mormon)etc

  You are mistaking shepherding authority and our understandings from already written Bible prophecy/chronology/principle for claiming inspiration which is what duet 18 is talking about. I feel like I am repeating myself. I hope the readers can understand the difference between using God's word and claiming you can actually write it.
• 

  today

  One interesting thing happened though. I brought up the double standards that the WT has had through the years. I gave her the experience of the Malawi and Mexican Witnesses that was discussed in Crises of Conscience. She was silent and eventually said...."That really disturbs me". I couldn't believe it. I thought that was the weakest and most unbiblical of my arguments. I begged her to read the book and assured her that it wasn't an angry hate filled book. She didn't commit, but I'm going to follow up.

  Your wife's friend may become your greatest ally in getting her to investigate the WT for herself.

  I actually brought up the fact that JWs are similar to other mind control groups in almost every single way. Obviously she disagreed and changed the subject. But I did bring it up.

  Steven Hassan's two books were so necessary for me to understand how a high control group recruits and enslaves the minds of their followers. Stunning to me that he didn't even know about the JWs when he wrote the first one Combatting Cult Mind Control. Read chapter 4 of that one if you don't have time right now to read the whole book. The Strategic Interaction Approach in Chapter 3 of his other book Releasing the Bonds is helping me to develop a plan. Just a short while ago I was feeling pretty helpless. These books were recommended to me here and on JWR and I inhaled them.

  It was actually interesting because I heard some defenses that I hadn't come across yet. She was very aware of false prophecies in the past. But she held that they were not prophecies.

  I asked my husband about the false prophecies and he said that it only happened once and that those people were not really JWs. I told him it happened more that once and I could see the surprise register in his face. Then he changed the subject. Now I wish I could ask him who were those people then. Wish I had been better prepared but at the time I didn't know about all this great information on the internet and now he refuses to speak to me concerning his doctrine. But I'm working on a plan and it makes me feel hopeful.

  Did your wife ask you anything about it afterwards? If she didn't ask you she's certainly asking her friend. You got some great points across in "your intervention". I'm looking forward to your next post.
• 

  Mary

  Kudos to you BrotherDan.

  I actually did a project a couple of years ago that might be able to help you out in reasoning with your wife. I took various subjects that generally come up in arguments with Witnesses and for the most part, I've used their own words to prove them wrong. Much of the project was a culmination of discussions we've had on here over the years. If you would like a (free) copy, please PM me, or you can download it yourself on Randy Watters website:

  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/bible/mary-s-project-an-analysis-of-jehovah-s-witness-doctrine.html
• 

  debator

  Hi black sheep

  I have never said they are not prophets but that the bible allows prophets to have other jobs than just having inspired sayings of the words of God directly. Prophets in the bible have many jobs including warning work from already written words of God. The proof is on the table of prophets in the bible that are shown never to have been given prophetic sayings.

  There is a lot of conginitive dissonance on this thread of people twisting this way and that to try and justify their rejection of witnesses but this is simply a cloth you cannot cut to fit witnesses however much to try and limit words or take scripture out of it's context.