Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    I'll ask a simple question if that's okay. If I was on trial for a crime and the judge found me guilty and ruled that I am to receive the death penalty, but instead of carrying out the sentence on me, the judge picked someone out of the audience to die in my place and I was then free to live out the rest of my life, would that be morally upright thing to be done?

    If this is a "Jesus and God" metaphore, I don't think you understand the nature of Jesus's sacrifice.

    If it isn't one then NO, that would not be a moral thing to do.

    I do NOT believe in absolute morality for Man, though I believe it to be an ideal to strive for.

  • ZeusRocks
    ZeusRocks
    If this is a "Jesus and God" metaphore, I don't think you understand the nature of Jesus's sacrifice.

    I understand the nature of the sacrifice. Substitutory atonement is not moral no matter how you look at it. What you're really saying is that it's not okay for humans to do what god and jesus did, but it's okay that they did it.

    There is a reason you stated this first off. It's because YOUR sense of morality cannot condone this course of action and you have to defend it because of your beliefs. I get that. But the fact remains, your own sense of morality has to be ignored in order for you to think that god and jesus did the right thing and the best thing.

    The execution of an innocent person who committed no crime was the only way to rectify the situation, which for an all powerful god with supposed limitless knowledge is the most pathetic use of moral judgement. He could have chosen many ways, but he had to have a blood sacrifice of innocence, which is downright criminal. He behaved no better than all the other pagan gods whose followers believed in human sacrifice.

    And of course you have made no mention of the other atrocious acts contained in the bible. If your moral guide is god, then you would have to agree that everything he does is moral and that you cannot decide for yourself what is right and wrong. If one day he told you to kill someone, you would have to do it, because god is your moral guide and it must be a good thing. Some people would say, "God would never say that", but the fact is he has said it many many times. You would have no moral code of your own, but I know for a fact you do, otherwise you would advocate, say, slavery for example as acceptable. After all god allowed it, regulated it in an extremely immoral and inhumane way, jesus never denounced it and the apostle paul enforced it by telling the runaway slave to return to his master as he was his property.

    The fact that you cannot condone these actions shows that your morality does not come from the god of the bible and the way most christians live their lives shows that they don't think many of jesus teaching are relevant for day to day living.

    I do NOT believe in absolute morality for Man,

    Do you believe that god is the absolute moral authority?

    If your answer is yes, then you have given up any sense of right and wrong. He could command anything and it would become moral. EVERYTHING god has ever done as written in the bible has to be good in your eyes, which would actually be sickening and inhumane.

    If your answer is no, then you are your own moral authority and what god considers moral has no bearing on what you personally consider moral.

    though I believe it to be an ideal to strive for

    I believe that too. And morality has evolved. Our morality today is superior to what is contained in the bible. It is superior to what was considered moral 100 years ago. Most of the world condemned Hitler for his actions. He had his reasons for doing what he did and he felt he was just in doing it, yet most of the world considers what he did as atrocious. In progressive societies, slavery has become unacceptable. Yet before it was justifiable because people had the backing of the bible. Over time morals change as societies change and it happens not because of the god of the bible, but in spite of him.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    You and I have a different view of what the bible is ( I do not think it teaches morality per say, though it CAN if understood correctly).

    You and I also have a different view of what you called "Substitutory atonement".

    Jesus's sacrfice was not a "sacrfice" of life since, if you believe the story, he is NOT dead.

    It is a sacrifice of divinity with a reward of divinity.

    Jesus gave up his divinity to be US and lived like US and felt pain and sorrow and happiness like US, he also "died" in the most hirrible fashion available to US, feeling ALL the pain possible for US to feel, and he did that for US to show US that were are deserving of God's "Grace" and undying love.

    There is nothing immoral about that, I as a parent would do as much for any or my children and family members if I had to.

  • Terry
    Terry

    People tend to feel they are entitled to things that they want. Especially desirable things.

    What steps they take to get what they want creates consequences.

    Sort of like tossing a pebble in a pond. The rings widen out from the point of contact until every part of the shoreline is reach by the widening circle.

    What we choose to call that point of contact and how we react as the wave passes over us is a FRAMING CONTEXT.

    We take our personal values and INTERPRET the deeds of others.

    We do so with presuppositions, untested premises and other bias.

    The ETHOS of our family, neighborhood, social groups and nation have all steeped us in a constant bath of bias.

    By the time we get ready to decide things on our own we are bent in one direction or the other already.

    Making our view straight is almost an impossibility.

    Good and Bad are mostly very PRACTICAL. What works is good and what doesn't is bad.

    Beyond that, group opinion and peer pressure shape, mould, warp and deflect even the most honest-minded of us into a well-worn path.

    We cannot think in a vacuum. There is gravity pulling us down. What is "Down" and what is "Up" is a function of relative points of reference.

    Down is toward the center. Up is away from center.

    None of you has any idea what I'm talking about right now....so...I'll stop.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    None of you has any idea what I'm talking about right now....so...I'll stop.

    Sounds like some "personal revelation"...

    ;)

  • ZeusRocks
    ZeusRocks
    I do not think it teaches morality per say, though it CAN if understood correctly

    No, the bible is either god's word or it isn't. Here is where you are using your own sense of morality to decide what the bible is, ignoring the fact the bible itself claims divine inspiration from god. So you are really saying that YOU will decide how you are going to interpret the bible.

    Jesus gave up his divinity to be US and lived like US and felt pain and sorrow and happiness like US, he also "died" in the most hirrible fashion available to US, feeling ALL the pain possible for US to feel,

    Your right. In the bible Jesus gave up his divinity TEMPORARILY, though he did not die in the most horrible fashion, humans thoughout the ages have been killed in worse fashions than him. He did not feel all the pain possible for us to feel. He didn't know how it felt to be raped, or constant hunger your whole life or what it's like to be struck down with disease.

    and he did that for US to show US that were are deserving of God's "Grace" and undying love.

    So really, what you're saying is that the only way god and jesus could show us that we deserve "grace" and this "undying love" is for someone to be offered up as a human sacrifice. That makes them no better than the pagan gods of canaan with their human sacrifices. Even if this god was real, who in their right mind would want to worship a god who requires a blood sacrifice.

    There is nothing immoral about that, I as a parent would do as much for any or my children and family members if I had to.

    That's the thing though isn't it....IF YOU HAD TO. God DIDN'T HAVE TO do things the way he did. He could have chosen any number of ways to set things right (after all he is all powerful), but his morality only allowed for a blood human sacrifice. Even most societies today have a higher moral code than that.

    I see you've mentioned nothing about the other topics I brought up regarding genocide, slavery etc that god also feels is sometimes acceptable. If you say your morality comes from god then you HAVE to believe these things are acceptable at times.

    The fact that you can't bring yourself to say that it is okay to sometimes commit genocide or to own other people or kill kids for showing disrespect, shows that your morality does not come from god.

    At the end of the day, people can believe what they want to believe, no matter the mental gymnastics involved in order to rationalize irrational behaviour by the christian god, but to say god is necessary for, or the source of morality is demonstrably false.

  • Terry
    Terry
    None of you has any idea what I'm talking about right now....so...I'll stop.

    Sounds like some "personal revelation"...

    ;)

    Nah, I'm just too lazy to pursue the analogy by explaining the Physics of gravity!

    Nobody in science "understands" gravity. It seems to be a consequence rather than a force. But, words in science are piggly-wiggly anway:)

    I've never read, for instance, a definition of "energy" that wasn't loaded with bullshit. It is framed in such a way you can't get your hands on it.

    A stone at the top of a mountain is said to possess "potential" energy. What a load of crap!

    Sure, and I possess a potential to be President of the U.S.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Terry,

    I feel your pain, in the 30+ years I have done Martial arts I have heard so definitions of "Chi" ( internal energy) that at times I didn't even know what side up was anymore !!

    LOL !

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    This is a balanced, informative thread.

    Kudos to you guys.

    Syl

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    No, the bible is either god's word or it isn't.

    Why, who told YOU it had to either/or ABSOLUTES?

    Who told you it must be inerrant?

    though he did not die in the most horrible fashion, humans thoughout the ages have been killed in worse fashions than him. He did not feel all the pain possible for us to feel. He didn't know how it felt to be raped, or constant hunger your whole life or what it's like to be struck down with disease.

    I appreciate your view on what it is to be crucified ;)

    So really, what you're saying is that the only way god and jesus could show us that we deserve "grace" and this "undying love" is for someone to be offered up as a human sacrifice. That makes them no better than the pagan gods of canaan with their human sacrifices. Even if this god was real, who in their right mind would want to worship a god who requires a blood sacrifice.

    It was to show US that we ARE deserving and no, "god requires mercy, not sacrifice".

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