by leavingwt 73 Replies latest jw friends
I see you've mentioned nothing about the other topics I brought up regarding genocide, slavery etc that god also feels is sometimes acceptable.
Ah, I see, YOU think because, in your view, the bible is God's word and I assume, infalliable, then what was written by ancient man in regards to man's view of what God wanted and allowed, then that must be what God allows and condones, is that it?
Like BTS wrote, game theory!
Coorporation is a good strategy in many situations. Coorporation is so damn good, the "coorporate now" switch is rather left on all the time, than to give a human the option to turn it on and off, because we would properly mess it up in that case. At any rate, its easier! For those reasons, humans will do crazy stuff like saving animals.
its pretty hard to discuss morals from an evolutionary standpoint without sounding like a total dick ;-).
Thanks Syl,
I just hope I didn't come across as brash. I'm not use to debating very much and hopefully PSacramento didn't find me offensive. I do realise at the end of the day we all have our own beliefs and because of our upbringing and where were born and through our experiences, our beliefs will differ. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and as long it doesn't negatively impact on another, no harm in disagreeing.
Ah, I see, YOU think because, in your view, the bible is God's word and I assume, infalliable, then what was written by ancient man in regards to man's view of what God wanted and allowed, then that must be what God allows and condones, is that it?
In my view the bible is not the word of any god. But the bible itself claims it is. A christians only reference for who god is or what he wants, is contained in the bible. To ingore parts of his personality you are showing your own moral judgement.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
You have used your own judgement to come to the conclusion that this passage in the bible is false.
The bible is the biggest book of mulitple choice this planet has ever seen.
its pretty hard to discuss morals from an evolutionary standpoint without sounding like a total dick
I don't think so. We have built-in empathy and it's a great guide - all you have to do is look at the impact you have on your fellows (which you need to survive - we are herd animals) for your morality. And, yes, Virginia, life is about balancing individual needs against others' needs. There is no "morality" that is "always right."
Evolution in our case is the survival of the community as well as the individual.
I'm not use to debating very much and hopefully PSacramento didn't find me offensive.
Hardly, I am enjoying this.
I love civilized debates in which people are NOT trying to convert anyone to anything but just exchanging view points.
In my view the bible is not the word of any god. But the bible itself claims it is. A christians only reference for who god is or what he wants, is contained in the bible. To ingore parts of his personality you are showing your own moral judgement.
There is one word of God for a christian and that is Jesus, the bible is simply what points in his direction but it does not define jesus or God.
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Which scripture was being referenced here? not the NT, it hadn't been written yet.
The OT? well Paul made it clear that the "law" was in many was obsolete, just as the OC wa.
So what was he referring to?
You have used your own judgement to come to the conclusion that this passage in the bible is false.
No, not false, but an interpretation of it could be.
The bible is the biggest book of mulitple choice this planet has ever seen.
It is a book of writings by people inspired to write about their God, their world, their hopes and dreams, what they saw, what they felt, what they believed.
Is some of it inspired by God? Yes.
Is most of it written simply by Man? Actually, ALL of it is.
There is one word of God for a christian and that is Jesus, the bible is simply what points in his direction but it does not define jesus or God.
The bible itself is a christians foundation of who or what god and jesus are. It's what we were all indoctrinated from. The bible does define god and jesus. Every christian uses their own moral compass to decide for themselves what god and jesus are based on what is written in the bible and how they are going to interpret it. Outside of the biblical writings, god and a divine jesus don't exist.
I could raise a child from birth and from a young age, read them Hans Christian Anderssons fairytales on a continuous basis explaining that Hans is the creator of everything and he had these stories written in order to teach us valuable lessons. Heck I could even make up a songbook in praise of Hans. This child has never seen Hans, heard his voice, had any experience whatsoeves with him, yet I teach this child to pray to him, because he is the hearer of prayers. I'll even add that we are so wretched according to his standards that he believes we deserve to die from the moment we are born. But he loves us so much that he got someone else to die in our place and now if we believe in that, we are saved by his grace and mercy. I could then go a write down a whole lot of rules that this child will have to follow and tell them these are the Laws of Hans. Hans is not only their moral authority, but legal one as well.
Now if got everyone in my immediate circle of family and friends to go along with this, this child would grow up no different than any christian out there, except for the fact that they believe Hans is the creator and the christian god is a false god along with the array of other gods out there. It wouldn't be hard, type out the different stories, add my own feelings, thoughts, hopes and dreams, get it printed up and bound and voila, I now can make anyone believe what I want them too if I start at a young enough age.
Indoctrination or appeals to emotion are the two main ways someone could believe a supernatural claim without evidence. After all, if someone was raised in the cult of Isis and came across a christian, they would dismiss YWHW and jesus as just mythology and vice-verse. If someone was raised to believe in what is true and demonstrable and verifiable came across these two people, they both would be dismissed as followers of mythology. To someone not indoctrinated god beliefs come across as mere mythology.
Against the beliefs of this child, the christian god has no more merit and is no more the source of anything that Hans. And against the findings of different scientific fields it comes off as self delusion as we have evidence both biological and psychological of why we have morals and how they came about and how they are continuously evolving.
Which scripture was being referenced here? not the NT, it hadn't been written yet.
The OT? well Paul made it clear that the "law" was in many was obsolete, just as the OC wa.
Well someone sure as hell didn't tell Jesus that since he frequently referred to Old Testament writings as authoritive. Do you claim to know something he didn't? How many times have people read Jesus say,"It is written", and every single time he was referring to the Old Testament. Paul made clear a lot of things and most of it goes against what we today would class as a normal range of moral behaviour.
Most christians only believe this stuff because the early church put a bible together, used it as their claim to divine authority, spread the christian god doctrine across the world at the threat of convert or be tortured and killed. It wasn't spread through love. And the only way to do this was with the bible and threats. Parents convert, and fearing the safety of their children, they are left with little choice but the teach their children this and the pattern continues through the ages.
It is a book of writings by people inspired to write about their God, their world, their hopes and dreams, what they saw, what they felt, what they believed.
Is some of it inspired by God? Yes.
Is most of it written simply by Man? Actually, ALL of it is.
I'm fully aware it is written by man. I am also fully aware that there is nothing uniquely inspirational contained within the bible that isn't contained in various god beliefs over the world.
This is your explaination of the bible, nothing more. You have no evidence that your claim of what the bible is, is any more valid than the JW's. It's all opinion and interpretation based on whoever is reading it and what their personal feeling are. There are millions of christians who would disagree with your interpretation and yet you would have no argument that could prove the validity of your point of view regarding the bible.
Your moral compass sees in the bible what it wants to see and it will interpret it as such. Just like every other christian on this planet and this is why you have thousands of christian denominations believing a wide variety of things, and viewing the bible in different degrees and none of them have any evidence that how they interpret it is the correct way.
Belief influences our actions, and for me personally, since what I believe influences my actions and how I view the world and the people in it, I would want to make sure that my beliefs were demonstrably and verifiably based on facts, and have as few false beliefs as possible.
Fact is fact no matter what a person believes.
I love threads like these! We need more like this!
I thought I should link to one I posted similar to this one: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175688/1/God-Morals-and-Atheists
The Apostle Paul wrote about those that, not knowing the Law, still did the things of the Law, because the Law was written in their hearts.
Morality is part of being human, it is in our nature, it is in our genes.
It also becomes part of our non-protein genes, our culture.
Moral cultures succeed better than less moral ones.
Moral behavior is what allows us to live together, work together, accomplish together.
Over time, our morality has improved, despite temporary setbacks.
Look at this, think of the kind of interaction it required. It is the rocket that landed human beings on the moon.
It is the work of no single person.
Do you think an amoral species could accomplish it?
BTS
