by Lady Lee 76 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
I think its worthy to review this video again and draw a more exacting conclusion on to whether this guy is making this stuff up.
Either he's one hell of a good actor or his prolonged guilt kept within himself has finally persuaded him to talk about it.
Again it's fine giving emotional support but outside of that just tell him to call the police. I would be extremely cautious in helping him "track" down anyone.
Again it's fine giving emotional support but outside of that just tell him to call the police.
I have on the You-Tube page where he's put up the video.
I hope he takes up the advise.
This Roger Smith guy might just soon have the police come knocking on his door.
GO Captainchocolate1, press on and Go
Hi, I thought I would throw in my ignorant twopence here. " <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } -->Not believing this story is Rude at best. We should always believe victims until proven false."
Twinkletoes
I have to say that I find this statement a little difficult to square with the principles I was brought up with. Please don't get me wrong here - I'm not commenting on THIS particular case (I doubt very much he is lying). I'm not sure whether that was what Twinkletoes meant? If so then I apologise. But as a rule, even in child abuse cases, how can it ever be sound in practice to state that we should automatically believe the accuser? Is it not an underpinning tenet that a person is "innocent until proven guilty"? Is not the burden of proof actually upon the accuser? I understand of course that it is ridiculously hard for a child to provide evidence of abuse - the age of the child, the immaturity, the fact that these despicable acts take place in seclusion, and so on and so forth. I am absolutely sure that the experts on this board can enumerate these difficulties more fully, and in no way am I excusing this vile crime.
But I still do find it hard to understand how we can square our natural and rightful instinct to protect the vulnerable, with the demands of "justice". Is it not more true to say that the position of the law, and indeed people in general, should be expected to be"impartial" - an accuser should provide evidence and proof of the act/crime before any determination can be made?
I wonder if I might ask a question related to this. In cases where some brother, lets say an elder, is accused of abuse, and the elders cannot "prove it" (even though, in my opinion, they should automatically report it to the proper authorities, so an impartial and exacting investigation can be done), what should be done?
Should the elder be removed? Should he be left alone? What exactly would most people consider to be appropriate?
I am going to say this with gritted teeth, because I think everyone who knows my story knows my view of the organisation. But.........in the above situation, what would be the appropriate action for the organisation to take? Should action be taken, and if so, what? This is a genuine question.
And, I wonder, in the case of two separate cases, where the guilt of the person can not be established, what should the organisation do to the elder?
I ask because I wonder, and I hope no-one will take my questions as a ludicrious "defense" of the Society. I know some of you have been abused, or know of ones who have, so I want to ask your opinions. I hope no-one takes this post the wrong way - it is not a defense of the Society, nor am I trying to be insensitive to child abuse victims - I want justice for them too.
Love to all of you
PP
PaulAppolos
I guess what I meant is. I always assume someone is telling the truth first. When the issue is obviously of the sensitive nature as this I automatically feel sad for the person. Since I do not know either party involved I cannot choose who I think is who is guilty or who is lying.
I cannot imagine either having this done to me or choosing to make a You- tube video about it. But I do know people are all different and some people like to reach out in different ways. Perhaps this boy is telling the truth and just needs encouragement to tell authorities, or even his parents.
Either way it doesn't hurt me to give him sympathy.
In cases where some brother, lets say an elder, is accused of abuse, and the elders cannot "prove it" (even though, in my opinion, they should automatically report it to the proper authorities, so an impartial and exacting investigation can be done), what should be done?
The problem is that victims don't get directed to authorities and so an attempt to find out the truth is never made. In other cases of abuse when a report is made the authorities have a chance to talk to both accuser and acusee. They have an opportunity to reveal what really happened. Sometimes it is confessed by the perpitraitor and sometimes they go free, and sometimes it was all a hoax. The point is it is in the open. Thats where it needs to be. It should not be that victims are afraid to speak out because they will be doubted for the validity of their story.
It is NEVER the responsibility of the elders to " prove it". The Elder should be informed of the accusation and monitored while the police investigation is going on. What they do to the elder after that depends on the outcome. If the accusation is wrong Apologies should be made and every effort made to clear his name. If he was guilty he should be in jail.
tt
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Hi TT,
thanks for your response. I totally understand the fact that your heart goes out to him, as does mine. As I said, I am not commenting on whether it happened or not. I don't know. But my point was actually more fundamental than that. Just before I re-iterate it, I want to make this clear – I don't accept that elders should be involved in investigating abuse cases at all. It should go to the authorities, to protect the victim and accused, and the elders too.
But the point is that in many cases, proof one way or another is difficult to ascertain. It's not black and white, not open and shut. Sometimes, charges are not brought, and the victim feels justice is not done. So, in the case where:
an elder is accused, and proof to convict him in a criminal case is not available, what should be done?
What of an elder who is accused on more than 1 occasion, sometimes years apart, but no criminal case can be brought?
In short, this is what I am asking – on this site, we are automatically and rightly on the side of the victim. Our natural concern means we often side with the person making accusations, even with lack of evidence. And so, we criticise the Society's policy on child abuse. So I ask : what should the abuse policy be, including handling the instances I mentioned above? That's not just directed at you, but all who are interested.
Love to all
PP
Ok what if I make a claim that Twinkle Toes Father who is a JW an elder and PO of her congregation raped me.,..... So TT would you show me sympathy too? What if I make a youtube video and put it there and then put your fathers name... just because is an accusation against the JWs should you or anybody here believe me? I hate the ORG and their policies too. Do you belive my accusation? yes no? why not? should anyone believe just because all hate the org?
LEts avoid group think mentality and analyze every item by itself.
Some of you may recall the "satanic cult ritual abuse " witch hunt in the 80's. Things can trun that way very easily.
put it there and then put your fathers name...
Wow I hadn't realized he had added a name. That is something. I don't believe that would be the right thing to do. This young man should have informed the police if he was prepared to give a name.
Of course as I said earlier it is hard to put yourself in someone elses shoes. I would be irrate if someone had accused my father of such a thing. Especially if it was done in a public way as this. I do not believe this person because they are an x-jw. I was sympathizing because they are a person, who to me looked like they were confused and in pain.
Unfortunetly I have close friends and family who hid abuse for up to 30 years before deciding to confess it to the brothers. I have seen how it eats them alive and they don't know how to tell, until one day they just have to say it.
Do you belive my accusation? yes no? why not? should anyone believe just because all hate the org?
How can I answer. Probably not, at first. Although I would definetly be asking me father about it. I would encourage him to go to the police and tell his side of the story if he said he was innocent. Why not? You always believe your loved ones are good even if they dissapoint you later.
thirdly, I don't know that I hate the" Org.". I am as dissapointed with it as I am a betrayal of a family member. I feel it deceived me, it violated my trust. I believe it is part of all false religion and give it no more or less blame than all the other people controlling institutions out there.
I believe anyone when they say they were abused, because my personality can not imagine wanted to lie about that. Trust! always my achillies heel.
What of an elder who is accused on more than 1 occasion, sometimes years apart, but no criminal case can be brought?
This is exactly like the story I told earlier in this thread. The brother was accused . The elders made it go away. He moved. Did he learn his lesson? Who knows? Who knows where he is now? I have a lot of regret about that.
So I don't have an answer. In my husbands Church of his youth they would bring the situation up to the cong. They would outright tell everyone what is going on in a public meeting and everyone would decide together what should happen. A bit like linch mob.But I have no better suggestions. At least if you wanted to accuse someone of something it would be doubtful you would lie to the whole cong.
tt
Just become someone is accused of rape doesn't mean it's true. No matter how much a victim is hurting, they must follow the proper steps to get justice. The goal is to see the perpetrator brought to justice. Not simply ruin their reputation. So if this guy really was abused he should go to the police.
