by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible
Jewish people have all kinds of looks. They don't have just brown or black curly hair, hooked noses and brown or black eyes.
LOL -- Don't I know it!
I've seen some pretty good looking carpenters. Lowly and handsome.
Harrison Ford is one darn good carpenter. He's been featured in Fine Woodworking more than once. Come to think of it, he's half Jewish too.
@leavingwt:
How would you respond to these [three] questions, if they were put to you by an outside observer, such as a practicing Hindu from India?
(1) If the Trinity is false, why do most self-described Christians believe it?
I know your questions were directed to @Podobear, and perhaps you might think it to be a bit unfair for me to be posting my own responses to these, but here they are:
(1) Short answer:
Because many people today are in spiritual darkness, being in bondage to cherished false religious teachings like the Trinity doctrine and "Once Saved, Always Saved," yet another false doctrine having no scriptural support.
The very fact so many professed Christians today believe in the Trinity proves that they have not been taught the truth and that they do not know either God or Christ.
(1) Long answer:
Most of the world, and not just "self-described" (or professed) Christians, but all of those that do not know the true God, Jehovah, are living in a state of spiritual darkness, alienated from the life that belongs to God because of the ignorance that is presently in them.
When Adam and Eve sinned against God, they forfeited their right to live forever on earth, but because of their rebelliousness and refusal to obey God, they also lost for us -- their offspring -- the right to live forever on earth as well for through Adam we became as spiritual unclean as was our father, Adam, who sold all mankind into bondage to sin and death, so that, although through no fault of our own, we became both alienated from and enemies of God.
In His mercy though, God immediately took remedial steps to remedy our sad plight by determining to set His son's soul, or life, as a ransom sacrifice for the sins of redeemable mankind based on faith in this provision in order that He might reconcile the world again to himself by making peace with sinful mankind by declaring some among mankind righteous for life in heaven through their faith in Jesus' shed blood and assign to those chosen administrative roles in a heavenly government that would receive a heavenly inheritance and also become joint heirs with His son as kings and priests in a heavenly administration provided by God for the blessing of those that would also have the prospect of being declared right for life here on earth to reverse the effects of sin.
God knew that it would take some time to teach sinful mankind the way of righteousness, so over several thousands of years. starting with Adam, God used men to make a written record of certain events through which record He would gradually reveal more and more about Himself and His righteous standards while progressively revealing His purpose for the earth and mankind on it.
Just as it is true today, so it was in the beginning that God knew that there would come to be born some that were past all moral sense, even giving themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort to the extreme with every inclination of the thoughts of man's heart was being only bad all the time so starting with Adam, God raised up prophets to also record prophecies that would prove to be a source of hope to those reading who were without hope in the world, but were sighing and groaning over all of the detestable and ungodly deeds that people were saying and were being done in their midst. God even entrusted to the fleshly descendants of Abraham, one of the men that had both worshipped and feared God, a written code, a spiritual law that comprised God's sacred pronouncements, which served to make mankind's sinfulness manifest, thus making his need for a savior more acute since no sinner required to observe the Law was able to do so.
After His having incorporated many prophecies that would help one to be able to identify the One to whom all of these prophecies point, the time came for Jesus' birth which would ultimately lead to Jesus' anointing as an adult as the Christ, in connection with his ministerial work. His ministry involved the healing of those in spiritual bondage to religious traditions that dishonored God and in his healing some that were physically sick or infirm, all of which identifying Jesus as being "the Prophet," as well as the Messiah or Christ, God's son, whose teaching underscored the need to pursue God's kingdom and His righteousness. His ministry also served to shed much light upon life and incorruption by means of the good news that was preached, not just during Jesus' ministry, but especially during the days Jesus' apostles after they had received the promised holy spirit.
Now following Jesus' ascension to heaven came the outpouring of God's holy spirit upon Jesus' disciples, which provided spiritual enlightenment about God's purposes and removed the wall that had forced the Jews to keep the uncircumcised nations, who had been alienated from the state of Israel and were strangers to God's covenants, at bay since they had formerly been viewed as unclean by circumcised Jews, reconciling the two peoples in one body to God through the good news so that the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal the eternal purpose of God that He formed in connection with Jesus Christ, might be made known through the Christian congregation.
While in other generations, the sacred secret of God's will had not been made known to mankind, it was during the first century AD that it was revealed by means of God's holy spirit that God had begun choosing those among the first to exercise faith in Jesus' ransom to become joint heirs with Christ in God's kingdom as a "little flock," which choosing has continued to the 20th century. Later, it was progressively revealed that "other sheep," with the prospect of living forever on earth would have righteousness imputed to them and declared righteous as friends of God were being gathered for salvation and so many people today are now flocking to God's organization.
Many people today continue to walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, for they are unknowingly in spiritual darkness, some in spiritual bondage to false religion, because Satan the Devil, the god of this system of things, has blinded the minds of these unbelievers. But what they aren't being taught is that one must continue in the faith, established firmly on the foundation, Jesus Christ, and steadfast, not allowing anyone or anything to shift them away from the hope of that good news.
So the fact that many professed Christians today believe in the Trinity is proof that they have never really heard Jesus in their churches, never really were taught by means of the Christ, because had they learned from the Christ they would never have embraced this false doctrine they cherish, nor "Once Saved, Always Saved," which is another false doctrine for which there exists absolutely no scriptural support at all, for the spirit of God is a force that actuates the mind enabling the Christian to don a new personality created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty.
(2) Why does your faith hold the issue as a litmus test, but most self-described Christians do not?
I'm not exactly sure that you mean, for many people that are now Jehovah's Witnesses came to abandon their belief in the Trinity once they were convinced to that this was not something that the Bible teaches. There are some folks that never become Jehovah's Witnesses though because they are unable to shake their belief in the Trinity, but they continue to attend meetings with us and they do so with the understanding that we do not believe in or teach this doctrine.
(3) Do you feel very grateful that you came to be in association with true Christians, given that the odds are very much so against you?
Yes.
@peacedog:
If you are in the mood for discussion, please explain your views on the nature of Jesus Christ (given that Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13 eliminate the possibility of his being an angel) while we wait for debator to answer my post.
When anyone reads the first two chapters of Hebrews without theological underpinnings, it is clear that the apostle Paul is not just speaking generally about the angels of God through whom God communicated to the Hebrew forefathers "long ago," but Paul is referring to one angel in particular through whom God spoke, who he calls "a Son ...through whom [God] made the systems of things," and who we learn, based on Paul's quoting Psalm 102:25-27 and applying this psalm to Jesus, to have been responsible for laying "the foundations of the earth" as well as the heavens, and which we also learn, based on Paul's quoting Nathan's prophecy at 2 Samuel 7:14 to Jesus, to be a very distinguished angel. (Colossians 1:15, 16)
Contrary to what you evidently believe to be true about the Lord Jesus Christ -- and you are certainly entitled to your opinion -- neither Hebrews 1:5 nor Hebrews 1:13 eliminating the possibility of Jesus having been an angel both before he became a human being and after his resurrection and ascension to heaven. Anyway, obediently getting actively involved in the disciple-making activity now taking place during these last days as Jesus commanded for a witness and living our lives in accord with the good news is what we must do if we truly believe in Jesus and are exercising faith in the ransom provision that means everlasting life. Certainly arguing over whether Jesus was 100% human and 100% God (having a 200% hybrid nature?) or whether Jesus is Jehovah, but not the Father, and even being awarded the gold trophy for winning such an argument just isn't the same as our telling others about the good news in order that we and those we tell might be saved.
Now engaging others in such arguments that have obtained since the fourth century AD over Jesus' divinity to no real purpose is useless, for nowhere do we read in the Bible that the one that is awarded the win in such contests will be saved, do we? But what we do read in the Bible is about those who have been reconciled to God through Jesus through their acceptance of the ransom 'provided they continue in the faith,' and that it is only 'those that have endured to the end are the ones that will be saved' (Colossians 1:23; Matthew 10:22). At any rate, the following is a brief "commentary" on Hebrews chapters 1 and 2, and when reviewing these two chapters, ask yourself the question, For what purpose does the apostle Paul have here talking about angels? What is his point?
HEBREWS 1:1-4
1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
While God had formerly raised up men who served as His prophets to communicate His will, it was during the last days of the Jewish system of things that God spoke to men through His Firstborn Son and Heir through whom God made the world, Jesus Christ. Jesus reflects God's glory for, like His heavenly Father, Jesus is now also a Spirit, and by his word he manifests the same authority as does his heavenly Father over all of the things kindly given to him by God, and after Jesus had paid the ransom to cancel mankind's debt to God as was raised up, he was exalted to a position at God's right hand and given an office higher than that held by or given to any of the other angels of God.
HEBREWS 1:5, 6
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father"? And again: "I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son"? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him."
Out of all of God's angels in heaven, to which of them did God ever declare to be his son, or to be his father. When during his second coming God next sends his Firstborn into the world, all of God's angels will also serve him even as they serve God directing their worship to God through Jesus.
HEBREWS 1:7-12
7 Also, with reference to the angels he says: "And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire." 8 But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners." 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."
Of all of God's angels, who are servants that provide a public service, God's Firstborn was the only one that was declared to be God's Son, the only one who, as such, has come to inherit God's throne due to his integrity and love for righteousness, so that his rulership has come to have greater than that over which other rulers anointed by God were given. As the One that had in the beginning been given the responsibility for the creation of the earth and the heavens, Jesus now has an indestructible life, so that while the things he made are not indestructible and can perish, he will never die and so he lives forever.
Since Jesus now possessed immortality, which the other angels do not, it would not inappropriate to think of Jesus as being a God in his own right since the very foundation of his throne is God, as long as we do not forget that is Jehovah from whom Jesus received his throneship, his power and his great authority. (John 20:28; Revelation 3:12)
HEBREWS 1:13, 14
13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: "Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"? 14 Are they not all spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?
To none of the other angels did God ever offer a seat at His right hand or to give to any one of them authority over earth's inhabitants, even though all of them are faithful servants of God whose role is to actively minister to the needs of God's servants on earth.
HEBREWS 2:1-4
2 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us, that we may never drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; 3 how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, 4 while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?
The importance of listening to the things that the Lord Jesus Christ says cannot be stressed any greater than to point out that if in the past, when the angels of God as God's representatives were sent as spirits to transmit messages to God's servants on earth, the word they spoke proved to be firm and lifesaving, then how much more lifesaving would the word spoken by Jesus that we hear today be with God bearing witness through distributions of holy spirit, for we will certainly drift away if we do not pay strict attention to what things God says to us through the Lord Jesus Christ.
HEBREWS 2:5-9
5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But a certain witness has given proof somewhere, saying: "What is man that you keep him in mind, or [the] son of man that you take care of him? 7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet." For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him; 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].
Jehovah has not subjected the new earth that God is making to angels, but given dominion over it to His Son, who was made a little lower than the angels, but then was crowned with glory and honor and appointed as administrator over all things in the heavens and on earth after he had tasted death for the sake of all mankind. That God left nothing that isn't subject to Jesus is what makes the resurrected Jesus a much more powerful god than the other angelic sons of God, but the God maker is still Jehovah.
HEBREWS 2:10-13
10 For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them "brothers," 12 as he says: "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song." 13 And again: "I will have my trust in him." And again: "Look! I and the young children, whom Jehovah gave me."
As the Chief Agent of life for those who are being sanctified through sufferings and are being declared "sons of god," Jesus is not ashamed to call his followers his brothers even as he himself suffered.
HEBREWS 2:14-18
14 Therefore, since the "young children" are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; 15 and [that] he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. 16 For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed. 17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his "brothers" in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.
Just as those of Abraham's seed ("the 'young children'") for whom Jesus died are human beings, Jesus himself become like them, a human being, that through his death he might free them from enslavement to fear of death in Satan's world, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest for their sake and a suitable ransom for mankind's sins, which experience has given Jesus a much better vantage point than of the other angels when it comes to rendering aid to those under trial since they have never experienced the suffering that he and his brothers on earth have suffered.
djeggnog -- Thank you for your comments. You may always feel free to reply to any of my questions. The more information, the better.
These discussions will go on forever, and I think one reason for that is that humans have to use the Bible to try to prove their point. It seems to me, from reading every comment on this thread and many, many others over the years, that one can use the Bible to, in effect, prove (or at least establish to some degree) both concepts - Trinity and no-Trinity.
To me, therein lies the problem - the Bible may very well teach both concepts. Perhaps it either gives us contradicting indications, or it intentionally teaches both concepts. Or maybe there's some in-between - some level of existence by God that we as humans simply don't understand. After all, would God really expect mere humans to fully comprehend all aspects of His being? Could this whole thing instead be fluid - could God exist and act on both levels (Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian).
Take the Holy Sprit for example. Some say it's a person. Others say not. The Bible is used to argue both. Could it be that the Holy Spirit can act as both? Could it be a non-person which at times takes on the aspects of a person? Or vice-versa? How do we really know for sure?
Rocketman!
Exactly.
This is how I feel: Love one another; the rest will be ironed out later.
Syl
djeggnog:
To none of the other angels did God ever offer a seat at His right hand or to give to any one of them authority over earth's inhabitants, even though all of them are faithful servants of God whose role is to actively minister to the needs of God's servants on earth.
I notice you inserted the word "other": "to none of the OTHER angels".
Verse 5 and 13 say that God never said these things to *ANY* angel; not to any *OTHER* angel.
Read them again:
5God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"
13God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"
Your explanation reeks of the Watchtower Society and I must dismiss it for the same reason that I consider the NWT a biased, sectarian translation.
It makes no sense to carry on a biblical debate with a person whose 'solution' to a problematic verse is to change what it says....
To quote debator: "It is funny to see trinitarians jump through hoops to deny the obvious and bible written. Replacing it with the obscure and read-into scripture. Often as in this case resorting to saying the scripture is not saying saying what it obviously is."
Replace "trinitarians" with "JWs" and he's spot-on.
Peace.
Designs said:
"Really, try promoting Unitarianism as Official Church teaching someday, go to the National Council and put that on the voting dockit................ Same goes for any Protestant group, I used the example of the Presbyterian Church and challenging the Westminster Confession , you'll see how open they are real fast. Protestants generally are not as wacky as Stephen and Perry's Fundamentalism, but open to core doctrinal challenges- not close."
By the same token, why not try promoting Intelligent Design ideas in a room full of evolutionists or atheists.
Or, why not try to disprove man-made "Global Warming" in a room full of scientists who work for the U.N. Climate Change Group?
Try promoting Christianity to a gathering of atheists.
See how "open-minded" all of them are.
djeggnog said:
"I have read many of the threads in which you either started or in which you were an active participant, @Undisfellowshipped, but I'm pretty sure that you are not able to discuss your faith in Trinity, let alone debate it reasonably with others (you wrote "debate and reason"), so I'm just going to do my best here to help you to focus on your own topic, assuming this is something that you believe you are prepared to do. Anything extraneous that you decide to inject into this discussion will not be given any consideration and such will be unceremoniously "shown the door," as it were, since these discussions about the Trinity do tend to go off the proverbial rails, and I, like the man, Jehonadad (about whom I'm sure folks that have read the Bible and do not just make John 1:1, John 8:58 and John 20:28 their "gospel" and whole reason for living), do not tolerate any rivalry toward Jehovah. I suppose it's just a character defect, so I've learned to live with it."
My Reply:
I commend you for not tolerating any rivalry toward Jehovah and for being like Jehonadad. I give you my word that I will do my utmost to remain focused on the topic (Trinity Debate using the New World Translation) and will do my best not to allow myself to get distracted or go off-topic.
djeggnog said:
"Were someone to issue to them such a taunt, I can appreciate how one might be a bit reluctant to step into the fray and ruckus that typically accompanies such "anything goes" discussions had about the Trinity. If I happen to someone that believes the things the Bible says to have been written to Jehovah's Witnesses that they might survive the coming day of judgment, then it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that I must also be of the belief that all other religions, whether they be of the "Christian" variety or any of the non-Christian and atheist "faiths," are false, regardless of whether any one of these Christian or non-Christian faiths should believe the Trinity to have some merit or believe Elvis is still alive. Now I don't know Bane and have only read some of the messages that he has posted to this forum, and while he strikes me as being someone that is full of faith, he also comes off as someone that enjoys patting himself on the back for the things of the spirit that he has come to learn as if he did not receive what things he knows from someone else. (1 Corinthians 4:7)"
My Reply:
I was not trying to "taunt" anyone, but was attempting to get Bane to reason from the Scriptures and compare Scripture with Scripture instead of just making baseless claims and name-calling and condemning everyone here to Gehenna.
I think your assessment of Bane is probably accurate (1 Corinthians 4:7).
I was simply letting everyone (including any "observers" or onlookers watching this thread) know that the Trinity Doctrine I believe in is the same one that is taught by the majority of churches. In other words, I had not come up with a new or strange "Trinity Doctrine."
djeggnog said:
"Anyway, I numbered each of the eight (8) items you mentioned above so that we can focus on just these items as you go on to prove each one of them using the NWT Bible."
Thank you! That was a smart helpful idea.
djeggnog said:
"Note that excluded from your list are the following items which are unacceptable in a discussion of the Trinity where the discussion centers around the three Persons said to be one God, for there is nothing at all "three-ish" in any of the following six (6) items that had been included in your post: [...] I don't say that you cannot or even should not believe any of these things in your list that are excluded, for you are certainly free to believe whatever it is you wish to believe, even as I also have such freedom, but you don't get to "stack the deck" by tossing into this discussion things that are totally irrelevant to it."
My Reply:
I will do my utmost to make sure I only include information that is relevant to our discussion/debate.
djeggnog said:
" All I ask is that you do your best to stay focused, for I will withdraw from this discussion (or debate) if you should introduce arguments that have nothing at all to do with proving the Trinity to be a Bible-based doctrine using the New World Translation of the Holy Scripture. "
My Reply:
I will do my best to stay focused. And I understand why you would withdraw if this debate or discussion goes "off-track" or off-topic.
We are agreed that this debate/discussion will be about whether the Trinity Doctrine is taught or supported in the Bible, using the New World Translation.
With that said, would it be acceptable to you that if we have a disagreement about the meaning of a word or phrase, or, for instance, if I lack knowledge about what a certain word or phrase means, we can use dictionaries (Bible dictionaries and English dictionaries) to determine the proper meanings?
Also, the New World Translation that I am using is the 1984 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References (Footnotes). Would it be acceptable to you for us to also discuss the further information that is found in the Footnotes and Appendix in that Translation?
In addition, would it be acceptable to bring into this discussion certain information that we find helpful from the "Insight" Books or "Reasoning" Book (Published by Jehovah's Witnesses)? For example, if there is information in those books which give the meanings of certain words or phrases or passages of Scripture that may have a bearing on the Trinity? (We could even call this supplemental information from the "Insight" and "Reasoning" Books "Translators' Notes" since they were published by the same group that translated the New World Translation).
My main points will all be taken from the New World Translation Reference Bible, and if you prefer, we will use only the New World Translation and NO other Watchtower Publications. Your choice there.
djeggnog said:
"Why does it matter that the Protestant and Catholic churches teach the Trinity doctrine? There are non-denominational churches that teach that embrace the teaching on the Trinity, too, churches like yourself, for example, since I did read one of your messages in this thread in which you indicated that you do not promote any "church or religious group," so why bring this up when it is enough that you and your church of one is out here in the world defending the Trinity?"
My Reply:
I posted that in an effort to show that I do not agree with those who claimed to be Trinitarians of past ages who abused or murdered people (in the "Catholic Ages") and also with anyone nowdays who claims to worship the Trinity and who wrongs others.
The Watchtower Society is always "exposing" Trinitarian religions of the past (and modern times) for all of their "wickedness" and "hypocrisy" and for failing to apologize or acknowledge their past sins, and are therefore bloodguilty before Jehovah.
I was attempting to show that I do not agree with evil actions of people who claim to worship the Trinity, and am sorry that they have does such wicked things in the Name of God, just as I am sure you feel the same about those individuals who have done wicked things in the Name of Jehovah, or who claimed to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
With that being said, I do not believe it is fair to judge a doctrine based solely on the actions of professed believers. If so, we would have to throw out the entire Bible due to wicked people claiming to follow the Bible.
So, we should not judge the Trinity Doctrine based on the actions of some of its professed believers, just as we should not judge Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines based on the harmful actions of some individuals claiming to be Jehovah's Witnesses.
djeggnog said:
"Why do you care that folks are making a "study in the Scriptures" and that they are thinking for themselves if you are not, as you say, here promoting either a church or a religious group?"
My Reply:
I am a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am humbly trying to do my small part in obeying my Lord's "Great Commission" to go and preach and teach and make disciples of people for the Lord.
Jesus said "Come to Me", He did not say "Come to this certain church building or church group."
John 17:3 says that getting to know (or "taking in knowledge of") God and Jesus means everlasting life. That sounds pretty important to me, and I am sure it is equally important to you as well.
I try to imitate Paul, the Noble-Minded Beroeans (Acts 17:11) and most of all, Christ Jesus.
Having a personal relationship with God, believing in the Ransom, and having His Spirit is far more important than belonging to a certain group or going to a certain building. (John 4:21-24)
Luke 9:49-50 (NWT):
In response John said: "Instructor, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he is not following with us." But Jesus said to him: "Do not you men try to prevent [him], for he that is not against you is for you."
djeggnog said:
"Do you think that encouraging others to take up a study of the Scriptures, as you are doing, isn't the same as your promoting a sect?"
My Reply:
The same accusation was made against Paul and the early disciples, and probably was made against the Noble-Minded Beroeans of Acts 17:11-12, as well.
How can it ever be wrong to encourage people to study the Scriptures daily? In fact, isn't that posted on the outside of one of the Bethel buildings in New York?
djeggnog said:
"When you say this, are you not also speaking to the atheists among us here? Why should they be interested in joining your sect when most atheists do tend to think for themselves, and typically they don't profess believe in a god, in any god (let alone a "Trinity" God!), which is kind of why these folks often refer to themselves as atheists?"
My Reply:
I am not promoting a "sect" or a "group" of any kind. My only goal here is to point people toward the True God, the True Jesus, the True Spirit, and the Holy Inspired Word of God, that they may have a personal relationship with God and be saved. Then, as God leads them, they can join any church or group that they believe teaches the truth of the Bible. Or, they can choose not to join any group. That is the freedom they have.
This thread is primarily going to be much more beneficial for those who already believe in the Bible.
I would recommend to any atheists reading this that they research more about the lines of evidence that point to the existence of an Intelligent Designer and Law-Giver.
You would probably want to believe in a God before you debate about whether He is a Trinity or not.
djeggnog said:
"Why do you feel the need to be among the first "to apologize on behalf of all Trinitarians" for anyone's behavior and actions?"
My Reply:
djeggnog said:
"Please explain why someone that doesn't believe that the Trinity doctrine has scriptural support should not believe in Unitarianism? I don't follow your logic here, considering that Trinitarianism is not the same as Unitarianism, and unless you are claiming that Unitarianism is the very antithesis of belief in the Trinity -- which I don't believe you are saying here -- then it makes no real sense for you to have said this."
My Reply:
Unitarianism, as I understand it, is the belief that God is only One Person, The Father of Jesus, and that God is NOT a Trinity.
I was simply saying, if you believe that the Bible teaches that God is Three Persons with One Nature, then you should believe that, however, if you believe the Bible teaches that God is One Person, then you should believe that.
At least (I hope) both of us can agree that the Bible should have the final say on all matters of doctrine or spiritual things or beliefs that we have.
djeggnog said:
"I'm open to hearing your arguments for Trinitarianism, but what is this "other side"? I'm willing to discuss and listen to your interpretation of the Bible texts in the NWT that you claim provide support for the Trinity doctrine, but why should others be open to listening to your arguments or to discussing the Scriptures and your take on what they mean?"
My Reply:
The "other side" of Trinitarians would be those who do not believe in the Trinity, primarily I was referring to those who believe God is the Father of Jesus and NOT Three Persons.
I hope that what I post will spur people on to have a desire to study the Scriptures and seek the truth and the true God with all their hearts, souls, and minds.
It's a free country (here in the USA) and a free Internet (unless you're in China, North Korea, or the Middle East), so anyone who does not wish to read what I post can choose to ignore this thread. That is the beauty of our God-given freedom and liberty.
I apologize -- there was some sort of formatting glitch in my post above. I will try to make sure that doesn't happen again, if I can figure out what happened. lol
Debate with djeggnog: Point Number [1]: * There is only One True God by Nature *
(All Scriptures are from the New World Translation, 1984 edition, with References, Footnotes)
I hope we both agree that the Hebrew Scriptures teach that there is only One True God, and His Name is Jehovah. I think we have common ground there.
Here are the Hebrew Scriptures which show that there is only One True God and His Name is Jehovah (or YHWH):
Isaiah 45:5:I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God.
Deuteronomy 32:39:See now that I--I am he And there are no gods together with me.
1 Kings 8:60:to the end that all the peoples of the earth may know that Jehovah is the [true] God. There is no other.
Isaiah 44:6-8:“This is what Jehovah has said, ... ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? ... And you are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.’”
Isaiah 43:10-11:“You are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, "... Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I--I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
Deuteronomy 4:35, 39:You--you have been shown, so as to know that Jehovah is the [true] God; there is no other besides him. ... And you well know today, and you must call back to your heart that Jehovah is the [true] God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. There is no other.
Isaiah 45:21-23:... Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me? “Turn to me and be saved, all you [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. By my own self I have sworn--out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return--that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear,
Isaiah 46:9:Remember ... that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me;
Joel 2:27:And you people will have to know ... that I am Jehovah your God and there is no other.
1 Chronicles 17:20:O Jehovah, there is none like you, and there is no God except you in connection with all that we have heard with our ears.
Deuteronomy 6:4:“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Now, djeggnog, are we in agreement so far? Do you agree that the Hebrew Scriptures teach that there is only One True God, and His Name is Jehovah?
Okay, now onto the Christian-Greek Scriptures:
James 2:19:You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. ...
As you can see from that verse in the Book of James, the Christian-Greek Scriptures teach the same thing as the Hebrew Scriptures, namely that there is only One True God.
But, what does "Only True God" or "One True God" mean exactly? Look at the following two verses, which help to explain the meaning:
Galatians 4:8:Nevertheless, when you did not know God, then it was that you slaved for those who by nature are not gods.
Romans 1:20:For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;
Romans 1:25: even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The Apostle Paul is explaining that there is only One God who has the true Godship [Nature of God], and this is the Creator (Jehovah). He also explains that all other gods are NOT gods by nature. And we should NEVER venerate or render sacred service to any creature, but only to the Creator.
Djeggnog, are we on the same page so far? Do you agree or disagree with any of the things I have said?
And, how serious of an offense against God was it if an Israelite started following or preaching a different god other than Jehovah? Deuteronomy explains:
Deuteronomy 13:1-5: “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah YOUR God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling. And that prophet or that dreamer of the dream should be put to death, because he has spoken of revolt against Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt and has redeemed you from the house of slaves, to turn you from the way in which Jehovah your God has commanded you to walk; and you must clear out what is evil from your midst.
So, as we can clearly see, this was a very important and serious thing to the Israelite Nation and also to the early followers of Jesus Christ. Anyone who was preaching any different god other than Jehovah in the Nation of Israel was to be put to death immediately.
Things we have established so far from the New World Translation:
1:) There is only One True God. (1 Kings 8:60)
2:) No other gods exist. (Isaiah 45:5)
3:) The One True God's Name is Jehovah. (Isaiah 43:10-11)
4:) There is only One God who is God by Nature and has the True Godship [Divinity, Divine Nature]. (Romans 1:20, Galatians 4:8)
5:) Christians should never venerate or render sacred service to any creature, but only to the Creator. (Romans 1:25)
6:) There is no other god together with the One True God. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
7:) Anyone who preached any different god besides the One True God was to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)
Djeggnog, do you agree with these 7 points that we just established from the New World Translation?
