Tear down the whole of South Africa

by Louise 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Louise

  Paulmolark - you do make some good points. I could understand if these protests happened at the turn of democracy, it's been 21 years and only now it bothers someone, and instead of discussing it,, let's throw poo and waste time and money, etc.

  Barrold - because I mention the race of someone makes it a bad thing? No! I'm not afraid to say a black person threw pooh on a statue. I'm not afraid to say a white cop shot and killed a black man. You know why, because those are the facts. In South Africa we are not afraid to mention race - you should 't have to be. Hell, I come from a mixed family myself - so race does not bother me. Go bury your head in the sand somewhere.
  

  Anyway, in SA there are so much more important things to protest against: Xenophobia, reckless spending of tax payers money, starvation, housing, violent crime, I could go on and on.
  
• 

  konceptual99

  Pretty much all the developments to come out of the industrial revolution in Britain in the 1700s and then from the colonial powers in the 1800s, into the mid 1900s were made on the back of oppression.

  Of course the worst of these was the years of slavery endured by generations of black Africans. Without drawing a direct comparison, many working class people suffered as wealthy land owners and industrialists developed big businesses manufacturing goods and building infrastructure. People worked long hours for little pay in very dangerous conditions in mines, mills, building railways and so on. Many children were forced to work at very tender ages. Education was minimal. Health care all but non-existent. Many business owners ran their own shops and currencies, trapping people in a cycle of poverty and, in a broad sense, enslavement.

  There is still a legacy in the UK in terms of class, privilege, entitlement. It's not as distinct as it once was but it is woven into the fabric of the social structure. To suggest that the impact of slavery or apartheid will not permeate the culture of those whose past is directly wedded to this history is ridiculous.

  The questions are how and when do things move on? When does a society accept that whatever the reasons as to why one is where one is, what really matters is how the future is made better? When should the past be left in the past? Was everything that happened in times of oppression always bad? When does pragmatism and optimism trump indignation or justice over past grievances?

  I don't know the answer but I am sure that chucking a turd at a statue proves that some aspects of society are not prepared to move on. Should they?
• 

  Bungi Bill

  Barrold - because I mention the race of someone makes it a bad thing? No! I'm not afraid to say a black person threw pooh on a statue. I'm not afraid to say a white cop shot and killed a black man. You know why, because those are the facts. In South Africa we are not afraid to mention race - you should 't have to be. Hell, I come from a mixed family myself - so race does not bother me. Go bury your head in the sand somewhere.

  
  
• 

  Barrold Bonds

  Mentioning race isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's pretty clear from your posting history here that you are racist. You've made a lot of posts in the past that boil down to "black people took my jobs"

  Saying you're mixed is the equivalent of saying "I've got a black friend so it's ok to say racist things."
• 

  paulmolark

  This statue has come under fire prior to this recent incident, although the previous anger did not involve throwing of poop. 21 years is not a long time at all I might add.

  When the so-called "democracy" was ushered in they had far larger things to worry about than the statute. Maybe now is the time it has come around. look at the situation with gay rights that has just taken off in the most recent decade. Why was it not taken up before with the same zeal? I am sure no one would push that "complacency" in the face of gay rights activists who are currently fighting for said rights.

  Truthfully the poo that was thrown was disgusting, yet nowhere near as bad as the shit -filled legacy of that monster Cecil Rhodes. He was a demon and no one in the 20th century should see any reason to have the name or image of such a vile figure gracing anything.

  Let's take a second and imagine that somehow Isis continues to destroy the monuments and temples and history of the nations that it passes through. It destroys cultures and landmarks in the middle east and after 20 years there is virtually no proof that ancient cities like Numrud exited or any signs of the Egyptians etc...

  Then Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi erects an immense statue to himself and sets up a university by donating the land that he stole from people already living there. Somehow after 100 plus years the world gets together and destroys Isis and returns the land to its people. Would you be upset if you saw a native Egyptian or Iraqi hurl poop at that statue and call to have it destroyed.

  Cecil Rhodes and his kind are just as bad if not worse than Isis. It just doesn't appear to be so when we are not on the receiving end of the brutality that he caused
• 

  AFRIKANMAN

  http://mg.co.za/article/2015-04-14-several-dead-as-xenophobic-violence-boils-over-in-durban
• 

  AFRIKANMAN

  Barrold .............I have 2 Black boys [adopted] in my family! The most precious humans you can imagine - There is also such a thing as a Realist !!! Go figure or come and visit !

  PaulmoLark you make a good point re: gays in South Africa which has of the most liberal constitutions in the world but where gays are not tolerated at all by the black populace : see link below:-

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_rape

  http://www.polity.org.za/article/rainbow-nation-de-jure-versus-de-facto-lgbt-rights-in-south-africa-2014-03-11
• 

  paulmolark

  i wonder if people like Cecil Rhodes and Leopold II and those that shared their imperialistic ideas had never set out to control all the resources of Africa and to obliterate and enslave the people on that continent if any of this would be happening right now.

  Not to excuse it the rioting because it is deplorable, but think of it this way. The last time a group of foreigners came into the country with plans of big business and making money of the indigenous people what ensued. Slavery, apartheid, oppression etc... etc...

  So maybe they just do not want outsiders regardless of color creeping in to possibly recreate the exact same circumstance. Surely it is easy for one on the opposing side to call that poppycock but when you are on the side who has seen it happen it probably isn't.

  I have close friends who are from South Africa, the experiences that they had are more than enough to make me not want to visit certain areas.
• 

  Louise

  paulmolark - just because we have african foreigners coming in and willing to work for their wage does not give south african africans a right to murder/ attack / loot....for fear of being under oppression again. These foreigners are not here to do that. They actually are here to promote commerce and trade and employ south africans, that is what is truly scary. Some employees have turned on those very foreigners that have employed them for many years.

  There are places that one best stays clear of.

  Barrold - again you offer nothing to the discussion, but to ""attack"" me. I mean I really don't care about you or your opinion but it is obvious you speak from a place of total ignorance. My family WAS actually affected by apartheid in a very physical sense - it was broken up because we had different colours in my family, certain members couldn't write their matric exams, or live together. I could rant and rave about that but I don't, it is a fact and my family have dealt with it in a civilised manner. If a black person gets a job merely based on colour and not merit, or a white person gets a job based on colour - it's NOT right - it's stupid. If you have read those past topics and posts I advocate getting a job based on merit or experience and not merely to make up numbers. It's not healthy for business and doesn't make good economic business sense as has been proven so many times. Because I speak out about race does not make me a racist. I speak up because I'm not afraid to mention colour in my posts, because there are people in this country that can still hold intellectual conversations about race and know it's not personal, and know it's not racism and know it's for the betterment of each other, to understand each other, to promote fairness in all aspects of life. Go play ostrich.

  There is literally a stand off right now in the Durban CBD.
• 

  Simon

  South Africa still has a lot of problems and the average person didn't do much better since Apartheid ended. The ANC by all accounts has become a gravy train and the reality is that a small number of blacks have benefited tremendously from the reforms compared to the average citizen.

  At what point should people stop blaming people who died well over a century ago, and start looking at what is going on around them now? They would be better getting involved in real political change and local government than throwing poo at statues of long dead people.

  Also, please stop with the "racist" accusations whenever there is any discussion about race.