by ultrabimbo 54 Replies latest jw friends
The wt can turn on a dime. Terry has an interesting , and true story, about how the oral sex prohibitation got started. The Brooklyn geezers have no concept of the real world. What's ok today can, and often does, change to being sinful next week.
Based on the "new light" bull droppings they spread around, I would say yes to your question. Not a matter of if, it's a matter of when....
Remember the slinky toy? That's the wt mind in action....
There was an article condeming oral sex in a Watchtower earlier this year.
I too would like to see that as I have not seen such an article for many years.
There have been plenty of articles, including the YOUTH book (Vol 2) which condemn the practice for people outside of marriage. Apparently many youths think they can get away with oral/anal/mutual masterbation sex without getting D/Fed as it is not 'real sex'.
George
Well, I don't know what the official stand is on Oral Sex within the Watchtower, but I can tell you from personal experience that when my now-estranged wife "got back in" to the WBTS, all oral sex immediately stopped. She swore up and down that it had nothing to do with her getting back in, but after reading your posts I see (as with a lot of stuff she has told me) she was lying.
even though a 'grey' area
There are a lot of "grey" areas.
Another might be making a sock puppet that looks like your wife, putting lipstick on it, then doing yourself.
Rub a Dub
alice, is that you?
Scully, where is Alice in this thread?
Fornication, by its very definition, means having sex with a person of either sex or a beast, and that person cannot be your spouse. The most common, and legitimate, instance of this would be having sex with your to-be spouse before actually finalizing it. However, there must be at least one human involved, and either another human of either sex and not the spouse, or a beast, in order for fornication to happen.
Of course, that doesn't stop the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger from trying. At one time, they did regard oral sex between married couples as "fornication". Thanks to Raymond Franz, they had to reduce that to a conscience matter. Of course, now they would regard that as "uncleanness" or "loose conduct", perhaps because they view it as unclean or as brazen disregard for authority of the washtowel articles against it.
asilentone
Alice leaves and ultrabimbo shows up. Registered on July 17, 2010. First post is entitled: Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?
Sounds like someone trying to stir things up.
That is all.
Here's pretty much every article in the past 50 years in regards to oral sex AND fornication. There is a noticeable absene of articles on this matter between 1983 and 1999.
To summarize:
Ray Franz's article later made it clear that some were using earlier statements in the WT to disfellowship those who practiced oral sex.Marriage mates cannot fornicate (since fornication is only outside of marriage). Conscience matter. If Elders were aware of this their conscience may move them to withold priviliges: Same as Ray's, except disfellowshipping allowed when for openly practicing and advocating oral or anal sex.
All articles consider oral and anal sex lewd or unnatural.
----------------------------
lv chap.9 p.99 "Flee From Fornication"
As used in the Bible, "fornication" (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexual relations outside of Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals, as well as oral and anal sex and the sexual manipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. It also includes such acts between individuals of the same sex as well as bestiality.
Hebrews 13:4 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 establish that God disapproves of both adultery and fornication (Greek, por·nei′a). What does the latter include? The Greek term involves the use of the genital organs in either a natural or a perverted way with lewd intent. It includes all forms of illicitsexual relations outside of Scriptural marriage. So it includes oral sex, despite the fact that many teenagers around the world have been told or have come to the conclusion that oral sex is acceptable. True Christians do not guide their thinking and actions by the opinions of "profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind." (Titus 1:10) They hold to the higher standard of the Holy Scriptures. Rather than try to make excuses for oral sex, they understand that Scripturally it is fornication, por·nei′a, and they train their conscience accordingly.—Acts 21:25; 1 Corinthians 6:18; Ephesians 5:3.
Fornication includes such things as sexual intercourse, oral and anal sex, homosexual acts, masturbating another person, and other acts between two people not married to each other that clearly involve the misuse of the genitals.
An authoritative answer to these questions can come only from our Creator—Jehovah God. And in his Word he tells us to "flee from fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) Just what does that mean? The Greek word translated "fornication" is not restricted to sexual intercourse but includes a variety of lewd acts. So if two unmarried people engage in oral sex or in fondling each others’ reproductive organs, theyareguiltyoffornication.w04 2/15 pp.13-14 par.15 Maintain Chastity by Safeguarding Your Heart
The Greek word por·nei′a, translated "fornication," has a fairly broad meaning. It relates to sexual relations involving persons not married to each other and focuses on the misuse of the sexual organs. Por·nei′a includes such acts as oral sex, anal sex, and masturbating another person—conduct commonly associated with houses of prostitution. People who think that such acts are not "fornication" are fooling themselves and have fallen victim to one of Satan’s snares. (2 Timothy 2:26) Furthermore, maintaining chastity means more than merely refraining from any act that constitutes fornication. To "flee from fornication," we must avoid all forms of sexual uncleanness and loose conduct that could lead to the gross sin of por·nei′a. (Ephesians 4:19) In that way we maintain chastity.
The original Greek word for fornication is por·nei′a. It refers to sexual activity involving the use of the genital organs, carried on outside the bonds of marriage. This includes the manipulation of genital organs and oral sex.
w00 11/1 p.8par.6 A Godly View of Moral Cleanness
What is meant by the word "fornication"? It comes from the Greek word por·nei′a, which is sometimes used to apply to sexual relations between unmarried people. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Elsewhere, such as at Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9, the term is broader in meaning and refers additionally to adultery, incest, and bestiality. Other sexual practices between individuals not married to each other, such as oral and anal sex and the sexual manipulation of another person’s genitalia, can also be designated as por·nei′a. All such practices are condemned—either explicitly or by implication—in God’s Word.—Leviticus 20:10, 13, 15, 16; Romans 1:24, 26, 27, 32
w99 9/1 pp.12-13 par.17 Youths — Resist the Spirit of the World
Finally, you must keep yourself morally clean. The Bible urges: "Flee from fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) The original Greek word for fornication, por·nei′a, refers to all illicit sexual activity involving the use of the genital organs carried on outside the bonds of marriage. That would include oral sex and the deliberate fondling of sexual organs. A number of Christian youths have engaged in such behavior, imagining that they really were not committing fornication. However, God’s Word clearly says: "This is what God wills, the sanctifying of you, that you abstain from fornication; that each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor."—1 Thessalonians 4:3, 4.
w833/15pp.30-31HonorGodlyMarriage!
How about sexual activity between married couples within the marriage bond? It is not for the elders to pry into the intimate lives of married Christians. However, the Bible certainly enters into their lives. Those who would "keep walking by spirit" should not ignore the Scriptural indications of God’s thinking. And they will do well to cultivate a hatred for everything that is unclean before Jehovah, including what are clearly perverted sexual practices. Married couples should act in a way that will leave them with a clean conscience, as they give unimpeded attention to developing "the fruitage of the spirit."—Galatians 5:16, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:3-5.
What, though, if one mate wants or even demands to share with his or her partner in what is clearly a perverted sex practice? The above-presented facts show that porneia involves unlawful sexual conduct outside the marital arrangement. Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage. Even though a believing mate is distressed by the situation, yet that one’s endeavor to hold to Scriptural principles will result in a blessing from Jehovah. In such cases it may be helpful for the couple to discuss the problem frankly, bearing in mind especially that sexual relations should be honorable, wholesome, an expression of tenderlove. This certainly should exclude anything that might distress or harm one’s mate.—Ephesians 5:28-30; 1 Peter 3:1, 7.
As already stated, it is not for elders to "police" the private marital matters of couples in the congregation. However, if it becomes known that a member of the congregation is practicing or openly advocating perverted sex relations within the marriage bond, that one certainly would not be irreprehensible, and so would not be acceptable for special privileges, such as serving as an elder, a ministerial servant or a pioneer. Such practice and advocacy could even lead to expulsion from the congregation.
Why?
Galatians 5:19-21 lists many vices that are not classed as porneia, and which could lead to one’s being disqualified from God’s Kingdom. Among them are "uncleanness" (Greek, akatharsia, signifying filthiness, depravity, lewdness) and "loose conduct" (Greek, aselgeia, signifying licentiousness, wantonness, shameless conduct). Like porneia, these vices, when they become gross, can be grounds for disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation, but not for obtaining a Scriptural divorce. A person who brazenly advocates shocking and repulsive sexual activities would be guilty of loose conduct. Of course, a person with that attitude might even sink to committing porneia; then there would be a basis for a Scriptural divorce. How concerned all devoted Christians should be to avoid and war against all such "works of the flesh"!—Galatians 5:24, 25.
It must be acknowledged that the Bible does not give any specific rules or limitations as regards the manner in which husband and wife engage in sexual relations. There are brief descriptions of fitting love expressions, such as at Proverbs 5:15-20 and various verses in the Song of Solomon (1:13; 2:6; 7:6-8). These, and texts such as Job 31:9, 10, at least provide an indication of what was customary or normal as regards love play and sexual relations and coincide with what is generally viewed as customary and normal today.
The most forceful counsel in the Scriptures is that we should have complete love for God and love for our neighbor as ourselves; a husband is to love his wife as he does his own body and to cherish her and assign her honor. (Matt. 22:37-40; Eph. 5:25-31; 1 Pet. 3:7) As the apostle states, love "does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked." (1 Cor. 13:4, 5) This would certainly preclude the forcing upon one’s marriage mate unusual practices that the mate considers distasteful or even repugnant and perverted.
This should not be taken as a condoning of all the various sexual practices that people engage in, for that is by no means the case. It simply expresses a keen sense of responsibility to let the Scriptures rule and to refrain from taking a dogmatic stand where the evidence does not seem to provide sufficient basis. It also expresses confidence in the desire of Jehovah’s people as a whole to do all things as unto him and to reflect his splendid qualities in all their affairs. It expresses a willingness to leave the judgment of such intimate marital matters in the hands of Jehovah God and his Son, who have the wisdom and knowledge of all circumstances necessary to render the right decisions. It is good for us to remember that "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God" and that "each of us will render an account for himself to God." (Rom. 14:7-10, 12) "We must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile."—2 Cor. 5:10.
It is also good to recognize that when the apostle wrote his counsel at Colossians 3:5, 6, he did not address it just to single persons but to married persons as well. He said: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." At 1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 Paul further counsels that "each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those nations have which do not know God . . . For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification."
By his reference to "sexual appetite" the apostle certainly is not condemning the normal sexual desire that finds proper outlet and expression within the marriage arrangement. We have a normal appetite for food and drink and can properly satisfy it. But one can become a glutton or a drunkard by self-indulgent and unrestrained eating and drinking. So, too, one could get so preoccupied with sex that satisfying sexual desire becomes paramount and the chief aim in itself, rather than an adjunct or subordinate complement to the expressing of love that the Bible urges. When this is the case, then the individual reaches the point of greediness ‘which is idolatry,’ and the sexual desire is that which is idolized.—Eph. 5:3, 5; Phil. 3:19; Col. 3:5.
What, then, of a situation where a married person, perhaps a wife, approaches a congregational elder with the complaint that her marriage mate is abusing her by forcing sexual practices upon her that she rejects as repugnant and perverted? If the marriage mate is willing to discuss the matter, the elder, possibly in company with another elder, can offer to try to help the couple to solve their problem, giving Scriptural counsel.
What if a married person claims that certain sexual practices of the marriage mate are sufficiently gross to come within the scope of the Greek term porneia as used at Matthew 19:9 ("fornication," NewWorldTranslation)? As has been shown, the Scriptures do not give specific information that allows for positive identification of certain sexual practices within marriage as being—or not being—porneia. It may be noted that the Greek term is drawn from a word having the basic meaning of "to sell" or to "surrender or give oneself up to," and thus porneia has the sense of "a selling or a giving of oneself up to lust or lewdness." The verb form (porneuo) includes among its meanings that of "to debauch." (Liddell and Scott’s Greek-EnglishLexicon) If a married person believes that the sexual practices of the mate, though not involving someone outside the marriage, are nevertheless of such a gross nature as to constitute a clear surrender to lewdness or a debauching in lewdness, then that must be his or her own decision andresponsibility.
Such a one may hold that the circumstances provide Scriptural basis for divorce. If so, heorshemustacceptfullresponsibilitybeforeGodforanydivorceactionthatmightbetaken. Elders cannot be expected to express approval (Scripturally) of divorce, if they are not sure of the grounds. At the same time they are not authorized to impose their conscience on another when the matter is a questionable one. (Jas. 4:11, 12) Having expressed what Scriptural counsel they find fitting, they can then make clear to the one involved the seriousness of the matter and the full responsibility that must rest upon him or her if divorce action is taken. If a person is simply seeking a pretext to break the marriage bonds, then such a one can only expect God’s disfavor, for of such treacherous dealing with one’s mate God says that "he has hated a divorcing." (Mal. 2:16) "God will judge fornicators and adulterers" and anyone divorcing simply on a pretext and then remarrying will not escape that judgment. (Heb. 13:4) The elders can be confident that the Lord "will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest" in his due time. (1 Cor. 4:4, 5) Anyone who sows in deceit and treachery will not escape a harvest of suffering, for "God is not one to be mocked."—Gal. 6:7, 8.
Even as congregation elders accord to their brothers and sisters the right to exercise their personal conscience in matters where the Scriptures are not explicit, so, too, the elders have a right to exercise their own consciences as to their view of those engaging in questionable actions. If they sincerely feel that the actions of a congregation member in these matters are such that they could not conscientiously recommend him or her for any exemplary service within the congregation, that is their prerogative.—
1 Tim. 1:19; 3:2-12; 5:22.
***
w762/15p.123par.15YouMustBeHolyBecauseJehovahIsHoly***
That's it. There do not seem to be any articles on this issue pre 1974.
Beyond these basic guidelines the Scriptures do not go and, hence, we cannot do more than counsel in harmony with what the Bible does say. In the past some comments have appeared in this magazine in connection with certain unusual sex practices, such as oral sex, within marriage and these were equated with gross sexual immorality. On this basis the conclusion was reached that those engaging in such sex practices were subject to disfellowshiping if unrepentant. The view was taken that it was within the authority of congregational elders to investigate and act in a judicial capacity regarding such practices in the conjugal relationship.
A careful further weighing of this matter, however, convinces us that, in view of the absence of clear Scriptural instruction, these are matters for which the married couple themselves must bear the responsibility before God and that these marital intimacies do not come within the province of the congregational elders to attempt to control nor to take disfellowshiping action with such matters as the sole basis. Of course, if any person chooses to approach an elder for counsel he or she may do so and the elder can consider Scriptural principles with such a one, acting as a shepherd but not attempting to, in effect, "police" the marital life of the one inquiring.
w782/15pp.30-32QuestionsFromReaders (Ray Franz's Article)
?DoestheBiblesetforthanyspecificdefinitionsastowhatismoralorimmoralasregardsthesexualrelationshipbetweenhusbandandwife?Isittheresponsibilityofcongregationalelderstoendeavortoexercisecontrolamongcongregationmembersintheseintimatemarital matters?
g01 12/22 p.26 Young Dating—What’s the Harm?
w06 7/15 pp.29-30 Questions From Readers
Fornication (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexual relations outside Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals as well as oral and anal sex and the sexual manipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. A person who unrepentantly practices fornication does not belong in the Christian congregation.
g04 7/22 p.12 What’s Wrong With Premarital Sex?
*** g3/07p.26 What if I’m Invited to "HookUp"?***
*** w07 10/15 p.27 par.8 Respondingto Your Conscience
Pre-ray Franz Article: Marriage mates could fornicate, it was suggested that this included oral sex.
Ray Franz Article:
Post Ray Franz Article
Fornicate you!
