Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?

by ultrabimbo 54 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  pirata

  Sorry about the previous messed up post. I still haven't got a hang of how to properly format things here.

  Here's the summary again:

  Pre-ray Franz Article: Marriage mates could fornicate, it was suggested that this included oral sex. Ray Franz's later article later made it clear that some Elders were using earlier statements in the WT to disfellowship those who practiced oral sex.

  Ray Franz Article: Marriage mates cannot fornicate (since fornication is only outside of marriage). Conscience matter. If Elders were aware of this their conscience may move them to withold priviliges

  Post Ray Franz Article: Same as Ray's, except disfellowshipping allowed when for openly practicing and advocating oral or anal sex.

  All articles consider it lewd or unnatural.
• 

  Earnest

  What would be the situation if a woman pretended to be someone else, a bit like Tamar, and a man, her husband, slept with her believing she was someone other than his wife? Or if that sounds a bit far-fetched, what if there were identical twins and the man's wife pretended to be her twin sister as she suspected her husband of having an affair. So if he slept with his wife believing she was her twin sister wouldn't that be fornication? Let me take it a step further. What if the man (or woman) has relations with their lawfully wedded other but fantasises that it is actually somebody else. Why is that not fornication?

  I understand (but cannot find it in writing and may be wrong) that phone sex is classed as fornication/adultery. If that is so what is the difference with someone who indulges in pornography? Is this a scriptural or WT sanctioned ground for divorce allowing remarriage?
• 

  pirata

  I understand (but cannot find it in writing and may be wrong) that phone sex is classed as fornication/adultery. If that is so what is the difference with someone who indulges in pornography? Is this a scriptural or WT sanctioned ground for divorce allowing remarriage?

  There was a discussion of this during the COs visit with the Elders and MSs. From what I remember, porn that involve another person(phone sex, video sex chat, etc), would be considered gross loose conduct and be a disfellowshipping offense. Porn that involves viewing something posted is not considered a disfellowshipping offense. I believe either of those are considered fornication or adultery, which requires physical contact, ocrrect me if I'm wrong.

  What if the man (or woman) has relations with their lawfully wedded other but fantasises that it is actually somebody else. Why is that not fornication?

  WT considers fantasies dangerous because it can lead to action (fornication). But only the action itself is considered adultery.
• 

  undercover

  There was a discussion of this during the COs visit with the Elders and MSs. From what I remember, porn that involve another person(phone sex, video sex chat, etc), would be considered gross loose conduct and be a disfellowshipping offense. Porn that involves viewing something posted is not considered a disfellowshipping offense.

  And they call the Pharisee's sticklers for the law...
• 

  RubaDub

  I understand ... that phone sex is classed as fornication/adultery. If that is so what is the difference with someone who indulges in pornography?

  There was an article on this recently.

  I recall it mentioned that the same principal as the Two-Witnesss rule appled to pornography.

  If you are just watching, it only counts as one. If you are only listening, it only counts as one. If you are only talking, it only counts as one.

  But when you combine two or three, that's where it passes from loose conduct to a serious judical matter.

  So if you are listening and talking (phone sex) or watching and talking/listening (video sex), then you are obviously guilty.

  To avoid the more severe sin, it is suggested that if one chooses to watch pornography, to hang up the phone or turn down the sound.

  Rub a Dub
• 

  ultrabimbo

  Hi All:

  Thanks for the comments. I was doing research on this topic because I have recently become separated from my wife who is still a borg constituent. Like I said, I left 4 years ago, we stayed together for about 4 years with me considered an apostate both by the WTBTS and my wife. She could no longer handle the humiliation of being married to an "apostate", so she left. I was a grave spiritual danger to her, although I never spoke to her about my misgivings of the WTBTS because I did not want to stumble her in her faith. If she asked me questions, I would answer them from my understanding of the scriptures but she rarely asked as "what could I know that wasn't already known by the wide awake John class"?

  She has been on my case for a divorce, but I figured what good would it do either of us because neither of us would be free to remarry. I still consider myself a Christian and think the only scriptural reason for divorce and remarraige is adultery. Which is why I started my research in the first place, one and one was not adding up to 2 somehow.

  Although I did not write them down and therefore would have to go through the whole process again to find them (WT articles) but I'm pretty sure that the society feels now that you can be guilty of "fornication" with your wife or husband. One of the articles recommended that the offended party in the marriage could get a divorce on the grounds of porneia from the congregation and then a divorce from Caesar for any grounds that they would accept, because even Caesar knows that a husband and wife cannot commit fornication. But according to the articles I read, if I read them correctly, she would then be free to remarry. They would laugh you out of Caesars court though, I think. Pretty sneaky, huh of the "wide awake John class who as a group will never go wrong"? If anyone has an updated Library CD please look up this info under scriptural divorce and separation, I think. My CD only covers up to 2003, so the newer articles that contain this "new light" are more recent and harder for me to access over the internet (it took a long time on Google searches). They supercede the older articles from the 70's, 80's and even the 90's.

  ultrabimbo
• 

  pirata

  *** g02 2/8 p. 10 Marriage Should Be a Permanent Bond ***
  [Box on page 10]
  DIVORCE AND SEPARATION
  God, the Originator of marriage, designed it to be a permanent union. But is there any Scriptural reason for a person to divorce his or her mate—and one that would allow for the possibility of remarrying? Jesus addressed this matter by declaring: “I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9) Sexual infidelity by a mate is the only ground for a divorce that will allow the innocent mate to remarry.
  In addition, the Bible’s words at 1 Corinthians 7:10-16, while encouraging marriage mates to stay together, allow for separation. Some, after trying very hard to preserve their marriage, feel they have no choice but to separate. What can be acceptable Scriptural grounds for such a step?
  One is willful nonsupport. When getting married, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and children. The man who willfully fails to provide the material necessities of life “has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.” (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible.
  Another is extreme physical abuse. So then, if a mate physically abuses his wife, the victim may separate. (Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7) “Anyone loving violence [God’s] soul certainly hates.”—Psalm 11:5.
  Another ground for separation is the absolute endangerment of a believer’s spirituality—one’s relationship with God. When a mate’s opposition, perhaps including physical restraint, has made it impossible to pursue true worship and has imperiled the believer’s spirituality, then some believers have found it necessary to separate.—Matthew 22:37; Acts 5:27-32.
  However, if divorce is pursued under such circumstances, one would not be free to enter a new marriage. According to the Bible, the only legitimate ground for divorce that permits remarriage is adultery or “fornication.”—Matthew 5:32.
  [Footnote]
  See The Watchtower of November 1, 1988, pages 22-3, for a discussion of separation.
• 

  pirata

  There hasn't been any newer printed light that I'm aware of that changes any of what's in the 2002 article.
• 

  elderelite

  for clarification, no act of Pornography (viewing or talking) is grounds for a divorce or seperation. JC yes, divorce no. and ANY act of porn COULD lead to a JC, but not automatically.

  and nothing you do with you marriage mate qualifies as fornication. unless someone else is involved. but thats another thread altogether...
• 

  Darth plaugeis

  I find when my Wife and I fornicate the next day we are riddled with Guilt.....

  No just kidding we're FINE.