The two witness rule (page 3)

Lozhasleft

dgp - you are possibly getting confused between my post and truthseekeriam's ?

Loz x

we are not talking about the secular authorites. I am only addressing how the congregation can handle these things and still use the principle of two witnesses. on the secular side though, children are sent to mental health professionals who attest that the children are telling the truth.

Titus

@elderelite: OK, but have you considered traps of that way of dealing with it? The problem will not disappear only if you remove "2W rule", or change its appliance.

Maybe some principles can be found in this article:

*** w06 9/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

It speaks about car accident that results in the death of others, but some principles could be applied here. For example:

The government’s view or a court’s decision does not altogether determine what action the congregation will take.

I hope they (we) don't apply that when the matter is child abusing.

So, you say that "on the secular side though, children are sent to mental health professionals who attest that the children are telling the truth".

Well, I think that in that case, elders should accept the view of the secular source.

sherah

Titus - Well, I think that in that case, elders should accept the view of the secular source.

Titus, respectfully, you are missing the point. Many of the posters are saying, from personal experience and a position of leadership, that the elders do not accept the view of secular authorities when it comes to child abuse or crimes commited by JW's. If there are not two witnesses to a crime/incident, the elders will not deal with it. Period. And the accuser is told to keep quiet or the elders will take action against them.

Titus - You can go to police, no matter if elders will take a judicial action in congregation or not.

I know this comes from a good place but the victim is not encouraged by the elders to go to secular authorities. Period. They are told that doing so will bring reproach of the congregation, Jehovah's name and slandering the name of the accused. Going to authorities places their standing in the congregation at risk especially if the matter was dismissed by the elders for lack of two witnesses.

I work for the legal system and ALL accusations of this nature are investigated thoroughly. No matter the amount of witnesses to the crime. This is where the JW policy fails and creates a breeding ground for pedos. The WT's standard for handling these matters is under scrutiny, not the individual rank and file.

jamiebowers

In nswer to DGP's original question, I would think that the adult who witnessed the molestation and the child who was molested would serve as the two witnesses. However if the child is too young to speak, I would think your scenario is correct.

blondie

The 2 witness rule is not applied in all cases the elders deem actionable by df'ing. There are no witnesses to the adultery or fornication here, it is ridiculous to conclude that sex occurs only at night.

"Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy or evi-
dence (testified to by at least two witnesses) that the
accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of
the opposite sex (or in the same house with a known
homosexual) under improper circumstances, is acceptable."

"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock " (Elders manual)

UNIT 5 (b)

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diamondiiz

Jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way

that witness would be a second witness as the child being abused would be the other. In child abuse cases, many times there is no second witness to the act so it's the word of the abused vs the abuser.

wobble

Is the "two witness" crap found anywhere in the New Testament ?

If not, what possible excuse does the WT have for incorporating it in their huge canon law ?

They themselves say the Mosaic law ended with the Christ, I know they talk about following the "principles" found in the Mosaic Law, but that is only when they feel like it, and 2 Witnesses is an ideal for many cases, but should not be adhered to blindly with no binding directions for Christians.

fokyc

Wobble asked: "Is the "two witness" crap found anywhere in the New Testament ?"

YES, Matthew 18 verse 16, here from King James version:

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

steve2

The example you give is useless: If you see a child being abused, there are already two witnesses: You and the victim. You seem desperate to cast aspersions. Even among local JWs here in New Zealand, I've heard of cases where elders have acted to notify the police even without the testimony of 2 witnesses.

The two witness rule

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