The two witness rule

by dgp 66 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Titus
    Titus

    people....... You are not honest.... You misquote the official policy of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I said that elders should accept the view of secular authorities (mental health professionals). I agree that it is wrong to reject it. I was honest. I said in what I don't agree with the policy. But everything else you mention is..... nonsense.

    The top of nonsenses is this:

    I know this comes from a good place but the victim is not encouraged by the elders to go to secular authorities. Period. They are told that doing so will bring reproach of the congregation, Jehovah's name and slandering the name of the accused. Going to authorities places their standing in the congregation at risk especially if the matter was dismissed by the elders for lack of two witnesses.

    Our book "God's love" directs us in this way:

    In rare instances, one Christian might commit a serious crime against another—such as rape, assault, murder, or major theft. In such cases, it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities, even though doing so might result in a court case or a criminal trial.

    Child abusing is a serious crime. Jehovah's Witnesses are religion. Somebody 1 here said that the religion does not recognize that category, but recognize only category of sin. Wrong. We know what is sin, and what is crime (Romans 13). Somebody 2 also said that Jehovah's Witnesses must obey and follow the WTBT$. Book "God's love" is published by WTBT$. Somebody 3 else said that the material in the book is only for public, but that we have some secret instructions given to us by... I don't know who.

    Somebody 1 , Somebody 2 ad Somebody 3 are certain posters here. I know exactly who, but I don't want to mention their names. They obviously contradict each other.

    When you will be honest, then we can continue this conversation. Until then, I will tell you this:

    The policy that Jehovah's Witnesses have on how to handle cases of child molestation is without equal in the religious community.

  • designs
    designs

    'it would not be unchristian to report the matter'. This language highlights the moral and ethical problem and message the Leadership is sending.

  • leavingwt
  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Titus

    The policy that Jehovah's Witnesses have on how to handle cases of child molestation is without equal in the religious community.

    And who told you that? Somebody? An organization?

    Have you actually read the policy of even 1 other religion?

    I have!

    And believe me the WTS's policy is one of the worst of the ones I have read.

    Two witnesses? A child needs 2 witnesses to being raped before the elders will do anything within the congregation and even then there is no guarantee they will either call the police themselves or encourage the family to.

    If it can be hidden to protect the name of the organization -- it will be.

    And Titus. You need to be aware of the difference between information that is published for the public and the information that is used by the elders. If you haven't seen a copy of the elder's manual I suggest you find one. There are a few on the internet in pdf format.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Titus said: The policy that Jehovah's Witnesses have on how to handle cases of child molestation is without equal in the religious community.

    Indeed it is. It is absolutely abhorrent and I am unaware of any other religion that demands "two eye witnesses" to the rape of a child before they'll do anything about it.

    What planet are you on anyway?

  • Sola Scriptura
    Sola Scriptura

    To wobble:

    you said:

    Is the "two witness" crap found anywhere in the New Testament ?


    The "two witness" Principle is consistently found throughout the entire Bible.

    Deuteronomy 19:15 (The Message):
    You cannot convict anyone of a crime or sin on the word of one witness. You need two or three witnesses to make a case.

    1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message):
    Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.

    John 8:17 (Amplified Bible):
    In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.
    ---

    I had two very respectable & comprehensive debates with two very respected JWN posters about this subject. I believe I reasonable showed that the JW current Official Policy, (although not perfect), is both sound and reasonable in balancing the inherit rights of the Accused (innocent until proven guilty) with the needs of the Victim.

    Click below to view the debates (Then comment back on this thread if you wish) :

    Barbara Anderson debate:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/180508/2/Its-WT-leaders-not-elders-who-are-responsible-for-all-the-harm-My-Geneva-Switz-lecture-posted-here-for-new-ones-Sola-Scriptura-to-read

    Big Tex debate:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/180309/2/Anyone-heard-of-Watchtower-policy-change-concerning-pedophiles
    ---
    Much respect to all.
    Sola Scriptura

    "Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
    Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879

  • Mary
    Mary

    Sola Scriptura quoted: Deuteronomy 19:15 (The Message): You cannot convict anyone of a crime or sin on the word of one witness. You need two or three witnesses to make a case.

    Old Testament example which is certainly not binding on Christians. During the first century CE, Jewish authority regarding serious legal matters were severely limited and instead, were doled out by the administration of the Roman government. Criminal and civil matters were initially handled by Roman officials and then possibly, passed down to one of the appointed High Priests within the Jewish council itself. It is worth noting that the Pharisees had to go through legal channels when they handed Jesus over to the Romans for exection.

    1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message): Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.

    Sorry Sola. But a "complaint" is something quite different than a "crime". Complaints were something that could still be handled internally both by the Jews and the first century Christians. Crimes were not.

    John 8:17 (Amplified Bible): In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.

    See the points I made above. Since the Mosaic Law was not in effect on either Christians nor the Roman Empire, this would in no way apply to a criminal act committed in the first century.

    I had two very respectable & comprehensive debates with two very respected JWN posters about this subject. I believe I reasonable showed that the JW current Official Policy, (although not perfect), is both sound and reasonable in balancing the inherit rights of the Accused (innocent until proven guilty) with the needs of the Victim.

    You may believe you "reasonably showed" that the WTS's official position is "sound and reasonable" but I read over the links you provided and you showed nothing of the kind. What you did do was ignore anyone who didn't agree with your weak argument as you continued to blindly try to excuse the Society for allowing this sort of horror to go on for decades because they were far more interested in their reputation rather than in protecting children.

  • Sola Scriptura
    Sola Scriptura

    To Mary:

    You said:

    Old Testament example which is certainly not binding on Christians.

    I listed these scriptures to primarily show: The "Principle" of the "Two Witness" rule is consistently mentioned throughout the entire Bible. (New & Old testament).

    This valid Biblical "Principle" is what JWs use as a foundation for many major & minor Official Policies in the JW World.

    2 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
    "Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action)"

    Sorry Sola. But a "complaint" is something quite different than a "crime". Complaints were something that could still be handled internally both by the Jews and the first century Christians. Crimes were not.

    Notice this translation:
    1 Timothy 5:19 (Amplified Bible)

    Listen to no accusation [presented before a judge] against an elder unless it is confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    accusation (?ækj?'ze???n)
    — n
    1. an allegation that a person is guilty of some fault, offence, or crime; imputation
    2. a formal charge brought against a person stating the crime that he is alleged to have committed

    Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accusation

    What Caesar (Government) decides to do with accusations consisting of only one witness is up to Caesar. But this scripture is clear on how the congregation should internally handle ANY accusation brought by only one witness.

    That's why I believe Parents should ALWAYS go to the Police 1st & the Elders 2nd. Because the Elders hands are scripturally tied when it's one persons word against anothers. (Innocent until proven guilty).

    You may believe you "reasonably showed" that the WTS's official position is "sound and reasonable" but I read over the links you provided and you showed nothing of the kind.

    Please show me 1 or 2 specific examples of where I failed to make my case. (I'm always willing to accept Truth wherever I can find it. But it must be proven to me 1st.)

    What you did do was ignore anyone who didn't agree with your weak argument...

    In the debate with Big Tex, I responded to as many people as I had time for. (You must remember, we JW apologist are greatly out numbered here on JWN).

    In the debate with Barbara Anderson, I stated clearly at the beginning of the thread that I would be debating the subject with Barbara only, (one of the best experts on the "facts" involving the JW Child abuse problem).

    Here is the disclaimer I posted at the beginning of the Barbara Anderson debate thread:

    (disclaimer to other thread readers: Since I have very limited daily "free time" to spend here. (you know how "busy" we JW's are ) Please don't be offended if I fail to respond individually to you all. I do read ALL comments. Thank you)

    Mary, I respectfully await your response to show me 1 or 2 specific examples of where I failed to make my case.
    ---
    Sola Scriptura

    "Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
    Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Sola Scriptura:

    That's why I believe Parents should ALWAYS go to the Police 1st & the Elders 2nd.

    Greetings. I don't think we've met or have spoken, previously. May I ask a few questions?

    (1) Do the JWs subscribe to 'Sola Scriptura'? (just wondering, since it's your screen name)

    (2) The advice you've given above sounds pretty good. Why doesn't the Society direct the publishers in the same manner?

    (3) In addition to contacting the Police and the Elders, would it be the loving thing to do to warn other parents within the congregation, so that they may keep their children away from the molester?

  • Mary
    Mary
    What Caesar (Government) decides to do with accusations consisting of only one witness is up to Caesar. But this scripture is clear on how the congregation should internally handle ANY accusation brought by only one witness.

    Yes, but as I've already stated, the authority that the Nation of Israel had when conducting a criminal investigation had long passed by Jesus' day. They did not have the legal authority to dole out punishments according to what they may have thought was fair----the Roman government had the final say regarding crime and punishment. The same thing goes for Jehovah's Witnesses today. While they may think that they are God's sole channel here on earth, they do not have the say as to what happens when a crime has been committed. That is supposed to be up to our Judicial System. The WTS has, unfortunately, decided that their reputation supercedes any accusation brought by a child against a fellow "christian".

    I listed these scriptures to primarily show: The "Principle" of the "Two Witness" rule is consistently mentioned throughout the entire Bible. (New & Old testament). This valid Biblical "Principle" is what JWs use as a foundation for many major & minor Official Policies in the JW World.

    And as I showed you, this principle is neither binding on Christians, nor applicable when it comes to crimes. So I don't give a shit if it's the "foundation" for Official Policies in Watchtower World, it's wrong, it's harmful, it's disgusting and it should have absolutely no bearing on crimes committed today. Which part of that don't you understand?

    That's why I believe Parents should ALWAYS go to the Police 1st & the Elders 2nd. Because the Elders hands are scripturally tied when it's one persons word against anothers. (Innocent until proven guilty).

    No, the elders' hands are not "scripturally tied". They have been instructed time and time again, not to go to the police and report any sexual molestation. This was done because assholes like Ted Jaracz were living in La-la-land, and did not want to have to deal with the shame and embarassment of having this problem dealt with by 'worldly' authorities, who of course, are under control of Satan himself. So unfortunately, your idea that parents should go to the police first and the elders second, doesn't sit too well with the Organization as a whole. Your idea is correct of course, but it is not something that is practiced by the Organization as a whole. Barbara Anderson, Bill Bowen, Randy Watters and others have clearly shown from their experiences that this is NOT what happens. That's why there was such a huge outcry when this crap was finally exposed on programs like 20/20, Dateline and The Fifth Estate. The idiots at the top were finally exposed for the uncaring assholes that they are and Ted Jaracz topped the list.

    Mary, I respectfully await your response to show me 1 or 2 specific examples of where I failed to make my case.

    Sola, the entire thread shows that you did not make your case. If you truly believe you did, then the depth of your self-delusion is astounding to say the least. Your arguments were weak, pathetic and basically simply reiterated the same nonsense that Crooklyn comes up with: 'We demand two eye witnesses before we can make an accusation". There are many people on this board who experienced sexual abuse at the hands of so-called "christians" and the whole mess was swept under the carpet. I would suggest you re-read Lady Lee's experiences, along with Avashai's before you come on here and start bleating about needing 'two eye witnesses' to the crime. It is utterly nauseating.

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