Hi
Know where in the bible does it say Adam was created perfect.(The non biblical ideas we accepted as J.Ws)
Also if Adam needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever, then doesnt this imply he was created like us dying.
Acolytes
Two Trees in the Garden of Eden
by God_Delusion 21 Replies latest watchtower bible
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djeggnog
@acolytes:
Know where in the bible does it say Adam was created perfect.(The non biblical ideas we accepted as J.Ws)
Yes, I do. That would be Deuteronomy 32:4, which states that "Perfect is [Jehovah's] activity." There are no "non-biblical ideas" that Jehovah's Witnesses or that anyone that studies the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses are taught. None. I responded to this same question of yours in the parallel thread:
Also if Adam needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever, then doesnt this imply he was created like us dying.
No, there is no such implication at all. What this implies is that Adam was not given the right to live forever; that's all. Although he was mortal and not immortal (or else Adam would be alive today!), Adam's life was being sustained by Jehovah until he had passed the test of obedience to Jehovah, which test he failed and lost the right to eat from the tree of life.
@djeggnog
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acolytes
gjeggnog
The scripture you refer to does not in my opinion say Adam was created perfect. Such interpretation of scripture would imply Satan and Judas are also perfect.
Also:-
A.If Adam was created perfect how could he fail his first test?(Morally he certainly was not perfect)
B.If Adam needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever his body was created in a dying state. (To me this is not perfect)
Ovbiously you are entitiled to your opinion, but its also true that the bible is certainly not specific on this point so its best not to be dogmatic in our thinking.
Acolytes
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djeggnog
@acolytes:
The scripture you refer to does not in my opinion say Adam was created perfect. Such interpretation of scripture would imply Satan and Judas are also perfect.
Let's consider what you just said here:
1) God directly created Adam as a perfect man.
2) God directly created the angel that became Satan a perfect angel
3) God did not directly create Judas Iscariot, for he was procreated and was not a perfect man
A If Adam was created perfect how could he fail his first test?(Morally he certainly was not perfect)
There is no such thing as anyone being created by God with perfect morals, for one is a free moral agent, able to decide despite whether one is a perfect man or woman (like Adam or Jesus) or an imperfect man or woman (like Job) as to whether one will sin against God or not sin against God. I didn't mention a thing about perfect morals, for what I was discussing is the ability 'to bridle one's whole body' (James 3:2), which is something that only Adam and Jesus were able to do since Job, for example, wasn't a perfect man. Do you even know what it means to be a perfect man or a perfect woman?
B. If Adam needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever his body was created in a dying state. (To me this is not perfect)
This idea of yours makes no logical sense. I explained this in response to your previous post, but your response here is almost as if I had been using an invisible font. It doesn't matter that you believe Adam's body was in a dying state. Do you really think Jehovah created Adam with the same propensity to die as an animal? If so, then is perhaps why you can so easily conclude that Adam's eating from the tree of life was as if the fruit was somewhat like a variation of Snow White, where instead of a poisoned apple there is a "magic" apple with properties in it that make anyone eating it stronger, taller or immortal, except anyone eating from the tree of life must (1) first learn that such a tree even exists and (2) earn the right to do so, which Adam never did because he lusted after what did not belong to him (2 Peter 1:4; James 1:14)
[Obviously] you are [entitled] to your opinion, but its also true that the bible is certainly not specific on this point so its best not to be dogmatic in our thinking.
Sure, it is. You are just not as familiar with what things that Bible says on these points, but I have inserted a few scriptural references in this post here if you are at all interested in learning what the Bible does have to say on these things. The Bible is specific on these points and we can be dogmatic if the Bible does teach these things. You may, of course, be of a very different opinion as to these things and that's fine.
@djeggnog
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acolytes
djeggnog
Thanks for your post.
I just met a J-W who didnt want to be impolite but he said he couldnt talk to me-I politly said he should be ashamed of himself.
My point is he thinks the bible teaches him to act that way.He thinks the bible is specific on these things.
Was the Bible specific on" The creaters promise that the generation of 1914 would not pass away"?
To your question "if I even know what it means to be a perfect man or perfect woman" I beleive humun life does not need to be perfect to be wonderful. It is out of imperfection that we grow and develop the fruitages of the spirit.
As for the Bible it is made up of words and words are an imperfect way to communicate.
Acolytes
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designs
Were there two Real Trees in Gan Eden the allegorical story from Jewish folklore...
The tragic part of of the Gan Eden story was how the writers of the NT kept weaving Anti-Semitism into their new religion based on a misreading of the Jewish legend. The mark of Cain gets a treatment in the interpolated 'Christ Killer' statement found in the Gospel of Matthew ch. 27.
John Chrysotom in the 400s, Bishop Cyril of Alexandria both incited riots and murders against large Jewish communities because of the perceived Mark of Cain/Christ Killer connection.
Historian Herbert J. Miller wrote of Chrstian violence against Jews 'Israel cannot number or name the millions of its martyrs'.
When you start with a false premise like taking folklore as Literal tragedy is often the result, especially with religious groups.
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cameo-d
The story does not say that the Tree of Life was for eternal life. When you inject 'eternal', you are going beyond what is written. However, I think religious leaders imply and count on you assuming certain things that just are not in the story. And that holds true for many other stories as well.
The Tree of Life is the opportunity of living on earth as a blind sheep, happy to just graze in the garden, not minding when the Masters take your wool and leave you cold in the winter. Some of the sheep did not appreciate being fleeced all the time. They wanted to know why they were being used and abused. Eve was such a sheep.
Adam and Eve worked hard in the garden, only to have some man claiming to be God, take all of the fruits of their labor. Eve was not content to break her back all day in field service, even though she was permitted to enjoy TV at the end of the day and hot tub on Saturday's only. She wanted to know WHY. What was it all for? Why did God not have to work? Why did God get the hot tub everyday? Why did God get all the money?
That's why she chose to eat (eat=learn; discover) from the Tree of Knowledge. She knew there was much more going on than what they were being told by 'God'. She was not content to be a blind sheep slave captive anymore. Tree of Knowledge was a quest for Truth.
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acolytes
Actually as to the story God said" ...for the day you eat of it you will die" not "if"
As to the tree representing obiedience. How was God disobayed. Adam & Eve were given a choice. They exercised their right and made a choice,and thought they were aware of the consequences. (If they were to die so much later and so much human suffering having resulted as a consequence then in the spirit of fair play God could have been a little more clear)
Acolytes
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tec
The story does not say that the Tree of Life was for eternal life. When you inject 'eternal', you are going beyond what is written. However, I think religious leaders imply and count on you assuming certain things that just are not in the story. And that holds true for many other stories as well.
"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
It probably does hold true for some stories... but I don't think it does for this one.
Tammy
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cameo-d
Tammy, that was said only AFTER they had already gained the knowledge from eating of the knowledge tree. They could not be allowed to "live forever" as in returning (reincarnating) back to this planet as they would disturb the other sheep who still have yet to find their way to the Tree of Knowledge.