tl/dr
"High-Control Groups"
by Consfearacy 128 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Aussie Oz
my one and only post to alice born again
links:
william miller = Nelson Barbour = Charles taze Russell
follow the white rabbit alice, follow the white rabbit, stop the cut n paste nonsense and look into history.
oz
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Essan
Consfearacy said: "By saying we're still under the umbrella of global apostasy (no one has it right) and by labeling all religions false prophets, you can ignore Hebrews 10:24-25, read the Bible and think whatever you want about it."
You should really think before you post. This latest statement contradicts even your own beliefs.
If the 'global apostasy' prevents Heb 10:24-25, as you claim, and if Heb 10:24-25 is a Christian obligation, then you are insisting that no Christian met the obligations of Heb 10:24-25 for almost 1,800 years during the Apostasy because there was no "Visible Organization" or denominational "True religion" during that time, despite the Bible being clear that there would be true Christian "wheat" throughout the entire period right until the end.
You see how your own reasoning traps you?
To break it down even more slowly for you - you believe the Bible when it says that Christianity would be overtaken and mired with the Apostasy after the death of the apostles. You believe that this Apostasy continued for around 1,800 years. You also believe - and rightly - that Christians have always been obliged to apply Hebrews 10:24-25 "Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together".
But according to your present reasoning Christians were unable to apply Hebrews 10:24-25, despite it being a Christian obligation, for almost 1,800 years - 95% of Christianity's history - because the foretold Apostasy apparently made it impossible.
This must be your claim because you are claiming that if the Apostasy continues today, then it would be impossible to obey Heb 10:24-25!
Heb 10:24-25 is a Christian obligation. True Christians did meet this obligation, whenever possible, all throughout the 1,800 years of Christianity. They did this despite there being no visible "Organization" or one denomination that represented a supposed "True Religion" and they are still doing this today!
Seeing as my stance is that things are exactly the same now as they were in the late 1st century, when the Apostasy began according to the Bible, then it is up to YOU to to prove that anything has changed since then regarding the Apostasy, not for me to prove that it continues exactly the same. You need to prove a change from the status quo. The onus is on you. This you cannot do.
However it can be proven Scripturally that your claimed "coming out" of Apostasy could not have not occurred yet. As you'll see.
You continued: "....You don't have to associate with God's people because there are none. This isn't Christian freedom, this is utter disbelief in one way or another."
Sigh, if you stopped thinking in such a fleshly way your confusion might dissipate. God's people do exist. They are the wheat AMONG the weeds. They exist as a spiritual 'body', not a visible, organizational one, they are true Christians within many denominations who are willing to associate with upbuild and encourage each other, even across denominational lines. They are not like the Society, which teaches JW's to look down on any who aren't in their sect, and who are not "free" to associate with them, and who "beat their brothers", condemning them all and insisting they will all be destroyed, simply because they are not JW's!
You said: Unless all humans are corrupt, a book truly inspired of God will lead to the formation of a visible organization in a country where we enjoy religious freedom.
So you and your false prophets Russell, Rutherford and the "Organization" presumptuously claim, but Jesus explicitly says otherwise:
"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
"He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." - Matt 13:24-30, 37-43.
So, despite your claims Consfearacy, this can't be done and so hasn't been done, no matter how much you insist, because your Master forbids it, until the END. Only the Society could make such a mess of such plain speaking Scriptures and only through mind control could they induce 7 million people to stare at the clear words of Jesus and yet not see the plain meaning. Instead his words trigger some pavlovian response in JW's which simply causes them to regurgitate the latest twisted and impossible interpretation on them from the Society.
JW's don't even see Scripture anymore because the Society, through endless training, has reduced verses simply to mental triggers for recalling Watchtower exposition.
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Consfearacy
Hebrews 10:24-25 had relative application during the foretold apostasy because of state-sponsored religions.
One frequently asked question about medieval history is, "When did the Dark Ages start and end?" The answer to this simple question is more complicated than one might think.
There is currently no true consensus among historians, authors, and educators for the precise dates -- or even the general dates -- that mark the beginning and end of the medieval era. The most common time frame is approximately 500-1500 C.E., but you will often see different dates of significance marking the era's parameters.
The Protestantism reformation began in 1517. During the Dark Ages no one could teach anything outside what was official church doctrine without being burned at the stake or tortured by the Inquisition.
Biblical truth couldn't be revived until sometime after the Church was stripped of its power. For example:
sh chap. 13 pp. 310-313 The Reformation—The Search Took a New Turn
Often referred to as “the morning star of the Reformation,” John Wycliffe (1324 - December 1384) was a Catholic priest and a professor of theology at Oxford, England. Well aware of the abuses in the church, he wrote and preached against such matters as corruption in the monastic orders, papal taxation, the doctrine of transubstantiation (the claim that the bread and wine used in the Mass literally change into the body and blood of Jesus Christ), the confession, and church involvement in temporal affairs.
Wycliffe was particularly outspoken when it came to the church’s neglect in teaching the Bible. Once he declared:“Would to God that every parish church in this land had a good Bible and good expositions on the gospel, and that the priests studied them well, and taught truly the gospel and God’s commands to the people!” To this end, Wycliffe, in the last years of his life, undertook the task of translating the Latin Vulgate Bible into English. With the help of his associates, particularly Nicholas of Hereford, he produced the first complete Bible in the English language.
All of this, of course, did not go unnoticed by the church. The Council of Constance declared Wycliffe (on 4 May 1415) a stiff-necked heretic and under the ban of the Church. Because of his prominence among the ruling and scholarly classes, Wycliffe was allowed to die in peace on the last day of 1384. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. His followers were less fortunate. During the reign of Henry IV of England, they were branded as heretics, and many of them were imprisoned, tortured, or burned to death.
Most of the early colonies in the United States, which were in part founded as a result of religious persecution, were generally not tolerant of dissident forms of worship with Maryland being the only exception. The modern legal concept of religious freedom as the union of freedom of belief and freedom of worship with the absence of any state-sponsored religion, originated in the US on September 17, 1787. The United States Constitution addresses the issue of religion in two places: in the First Amendment, and the Article VI prohibition on religious tests as a condition for holding public office.
After freedom of religion was established, apostasy is a conscious choice. Jehovah's Witnesses have maintained integrity and met in undisclosed groups even in places where there was no religious freedom, the Soviet Union for example.
“Sigh, if you stopped thinking in such a fleshly way your confusion might dissipate. God's people do exist. They are the wheat AMONG the weeds. They exist as a spiritual 'body', not a visible, organizational one, they are true Christians within many denominations who are willing to associate with upbuild and encourage each other, even across denominational lines.”
Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. 1 Corinthians 1:10
Or rendered:
http://nlt.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/1.htm
Divisions in the Church
I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.
So the “true Christians” that all speak in agreement, and are not divided, fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought are within many denominations even though they disagree with their apostate brothers and sisters. The fact of the matter is the first century Christians didn't think along these lines and wouldn't pursue this coarse of action unless they didn't have any choice.
Until these unidentified “true Christians” reform the "weeds," reform these apostate religions from within they are ineffective and nothing they say really means anything. Specific denominations of Christendom are divided on numerous issues. Jehovah's Witnesses as a worldwide organization are fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. There's no logical reason to hang out in these different religions make-believing you're accomplishing any good. Whenever you do start trying to proselytize inside these churches or use church connections to proselytize, you'll likely be barred from the premises.
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cantleave
Alice - JW's are not even Christian, let alone the "True" ones.
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Watchtowers Witnesses
Are you counting your time while witnessing to us Alice?
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Essan
Consfearacy, all of your points here have already been addressed and debunked.
Both in this thread and the last you have been placed in 'checkmate' countless times in your arguments by various posters but your dishonesty allows you to simply pretend it hasn't happened and continue. Then you cherry pick the points and Scriptures you want to respond to, ignoring huge sections of their posts and undeniable Scriptural and historical evidence as it suits you.
Thankfully, it appears I'm not the only one who sees this.
I'd love to see the moderation here restrict you to a formal debate where you and the person debating you must adequately respond to each point made in turn, or otherwise concede the argument. I don't see why JWN should have to tolerate deliberate liars, and your present mode of 'argument' certainly amounts to that and, in fact, depends on it.
If you were forced to be honest by being forced to deal with and respond to all of the evidence presented then perhaps even you would see the errors in your apologetics.
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letsslatejws
Consfearacy - Blind leading the Blind. ..
Why have you not checked the history of the JW's ? ie: Why would Jehovah select Charles Taze Russell from amongst other men to be his chosen one when he was living such a debauch life?
Answer: He wouldnt...
If anything Jehovahs Witnesses are the very essence of Satans Counterfeit Kingdom because they keep transforming themselves into angels of light !!! Heres my evidence :
Old prophesies were the TRUTH in their day, but suddenly when it suits the Faithful & Discreet Slave they get new light - yet they are meant to be providing food at the proper time derived from divine origins and yet even in the so called last days they keep changing so called truths/teachings. Truth is Truth & shouldnt be subject to change... this would mean JW teachings that they said were right have become a lie....
An example of this is from this link http://freeminds.org/images/articles/generationjw.jpg (put into your browser, ive not worked out how to make this into a clickable link). This will show you one scripture which has been repeatedly subject to NEW interpretation.
Whose returning to the vomit now ?? I really dont have to ask because it is YOU...
I really do pity that you havent been a true Borean and done your research. Your research is all biased and based only on the WBTS. Your are not allowed to research your old books because if you did you would be considered Apostate.... It is time that you woke up & stopped being brainwashed by this destructive CULT..
I wasted 20 years with them & my hubby 43 years.... Im only sorry we didnt escape earlier.
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letsslatejws
I quote you Consfearacy : So the “true Christians” that all speak in agreement, and are not divided, fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought are within many denominations even though they disagree with their apostate brothers and sisters.
I doubt you & other congregation members even realise that the Generation Teaching - Matthew 24:34, has even been changed again this year. The life of an Anointed overlaps with a child born today (who doesnt yet realise he is of the anointed), since their lives overlap the generation that they are both in, means that Armaggedon according to the WBTS has been moved another 100 plus years away again. When that newborn baby grows up and he is 80, his life can again overlap with another newborn pushing it again 100 years into the future and so on & on & on....
You say that you all speak in agreement and are not divided. Some realise the change others dont understand the change -I dont think you can call this being fitly united in the same mind & same line of thought because most of you do not even understand what your very core teachings are any more !
Lots of other JW's have realised this fact & that is why they are walking away in their droves, from congregations & Bethel itself !!!!
Wake up and Smell the coffee......
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metatron
Round and round we go in the strange fantasy world of WatchtowerLand. Notice how apologists go far afield without honestly discussing the simple reality of what high control as a group means.
It gets rather Pythonesque like a parrot not dead but merely 'pineing for the fjords' or 'stunned'.
The fact that Witnesses try to get members to die for the blood issue or the fact that they wreck families or shun people who stop attending meetings is ignored.
And the same goes for being false prophets: They predict something. It doesn't happen. They are broadgage public liars across 130 years but somehow favored by God (??).
The Watchtower has lower ethical standards than nearly any business on Wall Street because they hide behind freedom of religion for protection in regard to fraud. Uncaught, unpunished, unstopped, they are worse than Bernie Madoff.
metatron
