Alice - you have demonstrated that the WTS are a high control group a cult, when you wrote ineffect that unity of belief is enforced by the sanction of disfellowshipping.
I don't remember the Boreans being DF'd for discussing scripture.
"High-Control Groups"
by Consfearacy 128 Replies latest watchtower bible
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palmtree67
Alice said:
Mature Christians do maintain unity and full harmony with fellow believers and are not necessarily dependent on the "the faithful and discreet slave" to maintain unity. The faithful discreet slave is an instrument to help others progress to Christian maturity. When it comes to what is stated above, it's an individual choice whether a person agrees.
You know everything you just said there is absolute lies. It has been proven to you over and over again here.
Pay attention.
Focus.
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pirata
"Using the Bible and secular resources the early Bible students pinpointed the end of the gentile times in 1914."
1) It was Chuck Russel, not the students. It was never the students, only Chuck.
Nelson Barbour, published in the September 1875 Herald of the morning that 1914 would end the gentile times. Russell read his first issue of Herald of the Morning December 1875 or January 1876. Barbour however, would go on to change his mind about the date while Russell stuck to it.
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ESTEE
Of course JWs "speak in agreement" since they are told what to say brainwashed.
They even "rehearse" what to say in their weekly weakly ministry school and service meeting. ba-a-a-a-a
ESTEE
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Essan
Consfearacy said: Mature Christians do maintain unity and full harmony with fellow believers and are not necessarily dependent on the "the faithful and discreet slave" to maintain unity.
Bull. Do you sometimes forget that you are talking to people with decades of experience as JW's? Your lies won't fly here. The 'unity' you described it based on being required to accept without question the teachings of the Society. As the Watchtower says: "he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by ..."the faithful and discreet slave.", and as the article shows, this isn't a description of how things are, it's a command as to how the Society insists they must be.
The Watchtower also says:
"If we have love for Jehovah and for the Organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, "believe all things," all things that the Watchtower brings out"
So, belief in and agreement with all that the Society says is not optional. All Witnesses must agree with the Society. It is this slavish obedience to a Corporation which unites them. And this 'agreement' is enforced with sanctions.
You said: "When it comes to what is stated above, it's an individual choice whether a person agrees".
No it's not their choice, and the very Watchtower article you quoted proves you wrong:
"A mature Christian must be in unity [conformity of belief] and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding."
He "must", he has no free choice. He is even forbidden from "harbouring PRIVATE ideas" and opinions! He is not even permitted freedom in his own mind! And you deny the JW's are "High Control"? You're insane.
You said: "If a person advocates or insists on personal opinions or harboring private ideas that are in disagreement with what the slave teaches, why is this person in association with Jehovah's Witnesses?..."
This is where your lie about "choice" is exposed. Why do those who disagree often remain? Because they don't want to be disfellowshipped and made an outcast in the Congregation and have their lifelong friends never speak to them again and have family members, even their children, shun them! Because they have no free choice because it has been denied them by this "high control" cult! If they disagree and this becomes known the price in terms of sanctions by the congregation and the terrible consequences thereof can be too much for many people to bear!
Have you faced the implications of the fact that there is no way for a JW to choose to openly and freely leave without being demonized and punished? The implications are that this means the JW's are a destructive cult.
You said: "As for ex-communication, a person doesn't get disfellowshipped for having doubts, disagreeing or being disillusioned. They get disfellowshipped for taking an active stand against the organization".
Rubbish. As I said, this is the wrong place to lie about what occurs among JW's because collectively there are probably thousands of years of experience among JW congregations here. We know the reality. You will be disfellowshipped for disagreeing and if you allow it to be known that you have "doubts" or are "disillusioned" you could well be disfellowshipped also, and there will certainly be negative consequences. You do not have to "proselytize" of "take an active stand" against the congregation before you will be disfellowshipped. That's absolute rubbish. The Watchtower quotes above make it clear that JW's are not permitted even private opinions or beliefs which differ from Society dogma, never mind public ones.
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Consfearacy
Essan said, "Bull. Do you sometimes forget that you are talking to people with decades of experience as JW's? Your lies won't fly here. The 'unity' you described it based on being required to accept without question the teachings of the Society. As the Watchtower says: "he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by ..."the faithful and discreet slave.", and article shows, this isn't a description of how things are, it's a command as to how they must be. As the Watchtower also says:
"If we have love for Jehovah and for the Organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, "believe all things," all things that the Watchtower brings out."
So, belief in and agreement with all that the Society says is not optional. All Witnesses must agree with the Society. It is this slavish obedience to a Corporation which unites them. And this 'agreement' is enforced with sanctions."
If you do not believe the Watchtower (the faithful and discreet slave's principle means of teaching) has backing from God, you don't have to agree with anything it says. This is not enforced with sanctions and there is no one that can or does force anyone to stay in the organization. If a person is in a corporation and they start doing things that are a conflict of interest, there will be immediate consequences, up to and including termination. Jehovah's Witnesses will take quite a bit of time and patience to reason with a person. Common sense 101: If you directly conflict with most organizations (profit or non-profit) as an active member and voice your dissent to other members, it will create problems. You'll likely be asked or forced to take your voice of dissent elsewhere unless others agree. If it's constructive criticism because something is broken and needs to be fixed, that's one thing. But, if millions of people in the organization disagree with what needs fixing, you should start your own private, public club elsewhere.
Anyone in the organization that was there for decades was there for a reason. There are many people who have a job(s) they do not enjoy. Some people are locked into a job they hate. But it is their means of income, so they have little choice in the matter. If someone doesn't enjoy attending the meetings and other theocratic activities, they will cease participating in them.
Even those in other religions, true or false like what they're doing and get some enjoyment out of it, or they wouldn't be there. If they do plummet into disbelief, the difference is they many times can't answer some of the most fundamental questions like, why does God permit suffering?
"A mature Christian must be in unity [conformity of belief] and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbour private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.
He "must", he has no free choice. He is even forbidden from "harbouring PRIVATE ideas" and opinions! He is not even permitted freedom in his own mind! And you deny the JW's are "High Control"? you're insane."
Again, a person doesn't have to do, anything they do not want to. A person can choose to reject the faithful and discreet slave as a channel of communication used by God. He has a choice as you've obviously made yours. You can also go to the meetings and think whatever you want, (no one can read your mind), although if you disagree with what you hear, why attend?
lv chap. 1 p. 10 par. 12 “This Is What the Love of God Means”
Jehovah created us as free moral agents. This means that we have freedom of choice; we can choose to obey God, or we can choose to disobey him.
"This is where your lie about "choice" is exposed. Why do those who disagree often remain? Because they don't want to be disfellowshipped and made an outcast in the Congregation and have their lifelong friends never speak to them again and have family members, even their children, shun them! Because they have no free choice because it has been denied them by this "high control" cult! If they disagree and this becomes known the price in terms of sanctions by the congregation and the terrible consequences thereof can be too much for many people to bear!"
There's nothing in the society's publications that indicates a person is disfellowshipped for disagreeing. The criteria for getting disfellowshipped for apostasy has been clearly laid out in the articles I posted and there are many others that say the same thing: complete and consistent opposition to the organization. In twenty years, I have never witnessed anyone get disfellowshipped for disagreeing with something the society publishes or anything they hear at the Kingdom Hall. You have whatever stories you can tell on the internet and I have my own direct observation. I have never witnessed anyone do the right thing because of fear of being disfellowshipped. 70% of my family are Jehovah's Witnesses. Two have been disfellowshipped. It's well known, the family is of little importance to them. They know the door is always open if they choose to return.
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Essan
Consfearacy said: "If you do not believe the Watchtower (the faithful and discreet slave's principle means of teaching) has backing from God, you don't have to agree with anything they say. This is not enforced with sanctions and there is no one that can or does force anyone to stay in the organization."
No, as long as you are willing to lose your family and friends! You call that "freedom" or "choice"? It's the "choice" offered by a hostage taker! Agreement IS enforced with sanctions: disfellowshipping and shunning, and you know it. And for that most gross and deeply insulting deliberate lie I am going to request that the Admin. take action to restrict you because you are lying among people who know the truth and many of them who have experienced the heartbreaking consequences you even deny can occur, and for that lying insult I personally don't think you should be further tolerated or indulged. It's deeply offensive as well as totally false.
What next? Are you going to claim that sexual abuse does not occur among JW's in a place where JW abuse victims come to find support and comfort? Your present false claims are only slightly removed from this scenario. Many of us here are no longer able to have contact with family or friends simply because it was discovered that we did not agree with the Society on all matters, and you are going to lie to our faces, claiming such a thing could not and never does happen, when it happens commonly, routinely, with devastating and emotionally shattering consequences? You should be ashamed!
Consfearacy said: "You have whatever stories you can tell on the internet and I have my own direct observation."
I was a JW for over a decade longer than yourself and there are many here who have been JW's considerably longer than that. You are relatively inexperienced. That, coupled with your being a fairly obvious liar, renders your comments here meaningless.
Consfearacy said: "Anyone in the organization that was there for decades was there for a reason."
As were many here. The reason most left is that they discovered they had been lied to by the Society about many things. They stayed because they were ignorant of the truth, a truth actively hidden by the Society. They left because they discovered the truth.
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palmtree67
Alice, why do you keep comparing a religion to a corporation?
It has already been debunked here that the comparison is ludicrous.
Pay attention.
Focus.
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Darth plaugeis
I get it................
This isn't Alice...... because Consfearacy said he was a man in another post....
If I know my 70's shows.............
the EVIL TWIN!!!! (with a mustache).
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Simon
Consfearacy:
If you do not believe the Watchtower (the faithful and discreet slave's principle means of teaching) has backing from God, you don't have to agree with anything it says. This is not enforced with sanctions and there is no one that can or does force anyone to stay in the organization.
That is complete bullshit. You know it, we all know it. Most people who search for "Jehovahs Witnesses" on the internet after your pushed your crappy magazines and leaflets through the door know it.
You don't fool anyone anymore with your WTS double-speak and you are not welcome coming here to post blatant lies and propaganda of a mind-control C-U-L-T
