The Word: Earth Created by Sound Waves

by cameo-d 58 Replies latest watchtower bible

AGuest

If you are talking matter in space, average density of matter is about 1 atom/cm^3. In perspective, there are about 100380000000000000000000 atoms in a cubic centimeter of water. If you were talking about MATTER, it's at best about 20%, presuming all matter that is observable is ionized. If you are talking about matter AND space as a single entity, then it's about 9.9621438533572424785813907152819 x 10^-24%, or 0.0000000000000000000000099621438533572424785813907152819% of space/matter being plasma....
Ahhh, I think I NOW "see" the "problem," dear NVL (again, peace to you!). What I am sharing is just not that complicated. You guys are going too far OUT. Come back in... back to the middle... to the elementary. God is not a mystery, dear one... and seeing/hearing Him... isn't rocket science. It's as easy as A-B-C-1-2-3: see/hear Christ. That's all it takes, really. No atom smasher... no MIT degree... no ultraphysics equations. Not even a calculator. The only "tool" you need is faith... which I'm sorry to say... the WTBTS robbed you of. She robbed a lot of people of their faith. And she will pay for it, eventually. Question is, what will become of you in the meantime?
Again, I bid you peace...
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

If you're trying to say that the "idea" of my Lord, as the first-born of creation or instrument of creation, originated with Philo's... well... "sophia", dear Terry (peace to you!), which he acquired from Plato's.... ummmm... "philosophies," theories, and teachings... then I have to point out that Socrates, of whom Plato was a student... heard the same voice as I do... and acknowledged it. Openly. To the entire Senate. It was for this reason... his message to the Senate which he received from the Voice as he openly stated... that they wanted him dead.
Again, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
Terry

Aguest, here is something you can learn from Socrates:
Socrates' friend Chaerephon asked the Oracle at Delphi if anyone was wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that none was wiser. Socrates
believed that what the Oracle had said was a paradox, because he believed he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle by
approaching men considered wise by the people of Athens—statesmen, poets, and artisans—in order to refute the Oracle's pronouncement.
Questioning them, however, Socrates concluded that, while each man thought he knew a great deal and was wise, in fact they knew very little and
were not wise at all. Socrates realized that the Oracle was correct, in that while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he
himself knew he was not wise at all, which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance.
notverylikely

(Smiling) Ahhhh… no. That is not what I said… or meant. But if that’s what you got, then I must apologize – obviously, I wasn’t clear enough… for you, at least.
No worries. It's hard to understand what you mean since you are using words and terms you yourself don't understand. You'll have to forgive me for having no idea what you mean when you don't have any idea what you are saying.
And you have exactly the same choice. Exactly. Difference between me and you: I’m willing to venture into science… and learn, if necessary.
No true. You learn enough to try to make it fit into god and jesus. You have a bias in your learning.
As put forth in/by the Bible, perhaps. And I can’t say I know much about god and Jesus at all… because neither exist… at least, not in reality.
At least we agree they aren't real.
I have to say that I don’t believe that it was I who twisted things here, but you. Unintentionally, of course, because you neither knew or understood what I was saying, at all.
That hilarious. Of COURSE i don't understand what you are saying because niether do you. I understand what I am saying and what others are, at least when it related to science and things that aren't transmitted to you in dreams.
notverylikely

Ahhh, I think I NOW "see" the "problem," dear NVL (again, peace to you!). What I am sharing is just not that complicated. You guys are going too far OUT. Come back in... back to the middle... to the elementary. God is not a mystery, dear one... and seeing/hearing Him... isn't rocket science.
No. No you don't. I was talking about the volume of matter in space. That math too me five minutes. It's not hard. It wasn't rocket science. It involved basic chemistry and a passing knowledge of astrophysics. You continually THINK you know what I am talking about but you never do.
The only "tool" you need is faith... which I'm sorry to say... the WTBTS robbed you of.
Shelby, everytime you presume to tell me about my past, you just prove how little you know.
heard the same voice as I do...
Langston Hughes heard the calling of god and you said he heard it wrong in another thread. Who made you the one who determines who hears it and why? Your hubris and arrogance in presuming to tell others they heard it wrong and to tell my what I believe and to tell me about my past that you have gotten wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME just makes you appear foolish, Shelby.
garyneal

So this would be matter (electron)... colliding with a photon... and creating matter (i.e., electron (-) and positron (+)), right?
Yes, the electron is matter and the positron is antimatter. It is not creating matter though, it is merely converting energy into matter.
Which would have to be the first electron, which is matter, right?
Sounds right to me though I will admit that I am no expert on physics at this level.
So, you're saying the photon resulting from the electron/positron collision is the matter?
No, photons have no rest mass and quite frankly seem almost mystical given their nature. However the theory of photons do fit the phenomena so it is the best we have for now. Photons are particles of light that can travel at light speed and therefore cannot have any rest mass otherwise is would violate the laws or physics that says that no particles with mass can attain light speed. (See how this can seem almost mystical).
But a photon isn't matter, is it?
As I've already stated, no.
Electricity... and magnetism... or electromagnetism?
Electromagnetism. In the grand unification theory, electromagnetism is consider one of the four known forces. The other three are gravity, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force. As far as I know so far, there isn't any one universally accepted theory that combines these forces and explains their relationship with one another though it is beleived that such a relationship exists.
So, wouldn't the experiment require the collision of two non-matter entities... in order to make matter out of "nothing" (non-matter)?
At best, you can say 'pure energy.' This operates on the principle of conservation.
Photon changes into electron (matter) and positron (antimatter).
If matter and antimatter collide, they anniliate one another and revert back into pure energy (in the form of an energized photon).
It's been a long time since I studied quantum and theoretical physics as well as trying to understand things like the nature of infinity in mathematics. When I was studying them and coming up with my own theories, I was in awe at the near mystical nature of it all and it definitely served to strengthen my faith. It makes you think beyond the three (actually four) dimensions that we can perceive and opens the door to posibilities that seem impossible. That was why when a witness (my FIL) was trying to explain to me how the Holy Spirit could not be a force and a person at the same time I was thinking, "Such limited three dimensional thinking these witnesses have."
AGuest

Dearest, dearest GaryNeal... peace to you... and THANK YOU... for saying it SO simply:
the Holy Spirit... a force and a person at the same time
How sublime. I am humbled by having been given that knowledge... that TRUTH... and I thank you helping me say it, truly. Because this is what I am trying to say. Unfortunately, it did not come out that way, I guess, at least not for some. That YOU (and others) got it, however, makes my heart rejoice! Also, unfortunately, I don't think "limited three dimensional thinking" is limited to JWs, at least not if dear NVL is any indication. Peace to you, dear GN!
Dearest NVL... peace to you... and if you don't mind, I think you and I should call this a draw and simply agree to disagree. I think those who know what you know and so think like you do will understand and identify with what you're saying... while those who know what I know... and so think like I do... will understand and identify with what I'm saying.
Bottom line: we're both speaking "language", dear one, just not the same language, obviously. While your... ummmmm... "French" (and my apologies to anyone who may be offended) doesn't offend MY ears at all (I consider some of it rather nice, actually, particularly this latest "lesson"), however... my... ummmm... "Chinese"... appears to be grating on your nerves. I mean, that sometimes there are no words in one language to describe the words of another... or perhaps the speaker doesn't know how to properly conjugate his/her verbs, etc., whatever... and so when one speaks one sounds to the native as if "butchering" that one's language. But the speaker knows what they intend and mean... as does someone who also speaks their language... and to them it all makes total sense.
Since, by your estimate, I apparently don't know enough "French" to, well, even have a conversation (with anyone, apparently, though for some reason you assume it was only with you)... and since you don't know, well, ANY "Chinese" (I know, I know... you believe you do, but, truly, just because there's a few "pings" and "pangs" does not mean it's "Chinese" (again, no offense - just hypothetical)... and actually it's really Korean that you speak)... we should probably leave off our discussion. That it, unless someone who speaks some of both... like dear GaryNeal, here... wishes to step up and interpret.
Until then, however, I have to move on. Because I believe my point was made... at least for those who DO speak my language... and so there's really nothing more to say. So...
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
notverylikely

and if you don't mind, I think you and I should call this a draw and simply agree to disagree.
No. This was not a draw. It wasn't a fight or a competition where one side wins or loses.
I think those who know what you know and so think like you do will understand and identify with what you're saying... while those who know what I know... and so think like I do... will understand and identify with what I'm saying.
Yes and no. Those that speak science and math have specific terms to avoid confusion and to speak precisely and accurately. People that speak in theological terms often can't even agree on what they are talking about. For example, look at the thread on Langston Hughes where you said his experience was wrong because it did not match yours.
however... my... ummmm... "Chinese"... appears to be grating on your nerves.
You keep saying you are getting on my nerves. I know it's convenient to say that and then bow out of the discussion, but once again, I am not mad or upset, I am utterly sad at the state of education of people with regard to basic science and math when they try to talk about and argue about it.
I mean, that sometimes there are no words in one language to describe the words of another... or perhaps the speaker doesn't know how to properly conjugate his/her verbs, etc., whatever... and so when one speaks one sounds to the native as if "butchering" that one's language.
I understand your language perfectly well. Where it went sideways was when you tried to wedge science into your theology when you didn't understand it and then argued with and misunderstood the corrections and then tried to wedge THAT into your theology.
Since, by your estimate, I apparently don't know enough "French" to, well, even have a conversation (with anyone, apparently, though for some reason you assume it was only with you)
There you go, assuming what you you know that I think. You keep doing that and keep getting it wrong. Please do not do that.
and since you don't know, well, ANY "Chinese" (I know, I know... you believe you do, but, truly, just because there's a few "pings" and "pangs" does not mean it's "Chinese" (again, no offense - just hypothetical)
I understand theology quite well. I understand that you get your theology from dreams and voices and it regularly changes and that you disregard the bible when it suits you. Trying to have a thological discussion with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall since whenever you get backed into a corner you have a dream or an update from a voice and your position changes or you just ignore the discussion. No offense, but I've seen you do that more than once. Again, no offense, I think you are amazingly sincere and brave for speaking up the way you do, but...
we should probably leave off our discussion
... case in point. And again...
Until then, however, I have to move on. Because I believe my point was made
... there it was.
So...what exactly was your point?
AGuest

Well, okay, then, dear NVL... let's continue (peace to you)... because truly you do NOT know what you're speaking of with regard to me. So...

This was not a draw. It wasn't a fight or a competition where one side wins or loses.
By draw I simply meant agree to disagree. But surely you understood that, yes, as I was speaking... how to you say... with colloquialism? I.e., meaning one thing but saying another. You know, like saying "creating"... when I really mean "converting"? How DID you not get that???
Those that speak science and math have specific terms to avoid confusion and to speak precisely and accurately.
Okay...
People that speak in theological terms often can't even agree on what they are talking about.
I agree. But then, I don't speak in theological terms. I have nothing to do with theology. Yes, I know, you might want to call what I speak of theology... or "Korean"... but I ASSURE you... it's neither. It's "Chinese"... which is NOT the same thing, as I stated previously. Although there may be similar sounds, even written characters, they don't mean the same thing(s).
For example, look at the thread on Langston Hughes where you said his experience was wrong because it did not match yours.
You entirely misunderstand everything I stated there. First, I commented that the experience his AUNT informed him of was different than mine... and it was; however, I did not dismiss the entire experience. To wit:
My aunt told me that when you were saved you saw a light, and something happened to you inside!
Didn't quite happen to me that way, dear DF (peace to you)... but God does place the members in the Body just as HE wishes, so...(which merely sets forth that my experience was different, but so what?)
And Jesus came into your life!
My Lord, JAHESHUA, okay... but he came to me many weeks before the light... (which is merely a different experience, so what?)...
And God was with you from then on!
Okay, that part's true... (actually, it's Christ, but God through Christ, so I agreed... so what?)
She said you could see and hear and feel Jesus in your soul.
As is that part...
So, I agreed in great deal with Mr. Langston's aunt; however, by HIS experience... or should I say lack thereof... Mr. Langston disagreed with his aunt. Moving on...
So I sat there calmly in the hot, crowded church,
Yikes. Don't think it was really needed to happen in a church, though... crowded or otherwise... (which is the truth - it can happen anywhere... but in this case young Master Langston was obviously under the impression church was the only "place"... and that is NOT true...)
waiting for Jesus... to come to me.
And again, therein lies the rub. The invitation is for US... to come to CHRIST. And so I merely explained why young Master Hughes didn't HAVE a similar experience to what his aunt, I, and others have had... that perhaps if he had gotten up he MIGHT have had such, too. But... he didn't (get up)... and so he didn't (have ANY experience, contrary to what you're stating, that his lack of an experience was an experience). As a result, his faith was shipwrecked. IF, however, his aunt and the others who claimed to have known would have told him, "Child, it does not have to happen in a church, indeed, most often it WON'T... but be patient - when your time comes and you are truly wishing... if, at that time... you exercise just a modicum of FAITH... and come when Christ calls you... LISTEN to his voice and just go... then he will meet you halfway. He... will come... to you."
Like Peter, you at least gotta take a step on ONTO the water. Young Master Hughes didn't take that step. He didn't even take A step. And so spent the rest of his life denying God, rather than looking for him. I only explained why that was, dear NVL...
You keep saying you are getting on my nerves.
Well, perhaps I'm not alone, but apparently I am among those whose "state of education... with regard to basic science and math..." or lack thereof... cause you some kind of... ummm... irritation.
I know it's convenient to say that and then bow out of the discussion, but once again, I am not mad or upset, I am utterly sad at the state of education of people with regard to basic science and math when they try to talk about and argue about it.
Unfortunately, "sad"... utterly or otherwise... isn't the emotion that is coming across, though...
I understand your language perfectly well.
Truly, you don't. Just the comments regarding me talking to "god" shows that. Or even the use of the name "Jesus" shows that.
Where it went sideways was when you tried to wedge science into your theology when you didn't understand it and then argued with and misunderstood the corrections and then tried to wedge THAT into your theology.
I didn't try to wedge science into anything, and certainly not theology (the use of which word shows me, again, that you have absolutely no clue as to "my" language...). Science helped ME understand something that I did not before: that when God said, "Let there be light," which light I already knew to be my Lord... how it was that creation could come THROUGH that light. Now, I get that those who DO speak "theology" often try to do what you say here - wedge science into their theology - as well as that some theologians totally dismiss science while some scientists totally dismiss theology. IF you knew the language I speak, however, you would know that science very often HELPS us when "seeing" God... at least as to seeing His works. I totally believe that... and have stated that here on this board.
There you go, assuming what you you know that I think. You keep doing that and keep getting it wrong. Please do not do that.
No, dear one, truly... you BELIEVE I am speaking Korean because of the use of some similar sounds. For example, the word "spirit" and "spirituality." And "light". But these words have absolutely different meanings to ME... than to theologians (i.e., those who speak Korean). My language is NOT Korean, however, as I have tried to share with you - it is Chinese... which is a totally different language... and culture... altogether. But again, because of some of the similar sounds... you keep believing it's Korean. It is not.
I understand theology quite well.
Korean, yes.
I understand that you get your theology from dreams and voices
Then you entirely do NOT understand... for there are no dreams... or voices. There is only one voice. And I am always awake, indeed wide awake.
and it regularly changes and that you disregard the bible when it suits you.
Again, you obviously do NOT understand... and have made me out to be what YOU believe... not what I am. My faith, belief and understanding never changes. Hasn't since my Lord came to me. And I disregard the Bible... for ME... entirely. I have posted that here for over 10 years, now. Neither God nor Christ can be found in or understood by a book. It was NOT the book, the Bible, that helped me understand the entire subject of this discussion... that Christ is the light through which all creation came into being. It was Christ who helped me understand what the BOOK meant... that he was the light that the BOOK referred to. And it was a teeny tiny result from a pretty big science experiment that helped me understand HOW creation came through that light.
And the ONLY reason it came up is NOT because I went to the Bible and read something, but because another posted a quote FROM the Bible.
Now, if I fumbled in my articulation of what I came to understand... well, take me out and shoot me. But it won't change the TRUTH of that understanding. When the discussion started, someone mentioned God "saying"... and perhaps that event causing creation. It didn't sound too far-fetched to ME... because when WE speak air comes forth from us. Someone else explained, however, that it only occurs due to the air already within us. Which prompted me to ask... couldn't that be the same with God... that "air" (and I didn't mean such that comes out of us, per se) came forth from Him... His "breath"?
And I haven't give up that truth, either. Because what CAME forth from Him... was the Holy Spirit, my Lord. And since breath is life... and he is The Life... and holy spirit is God's life force, HIS breath, blood, semen... and Christ is the Holy Spirit... well... doesn't seem like all that complicated an equation to ME.
But, as I openly confess... I am a foolish thing... with a very simply mind. I am not ashamed of that, however, as it is this very foolish and simple mind... and heart... that have been granted to see and hear Christ... and God THROUGH Christ. So, if I had to choose... between your... ummmm... VERY LIMITING "intelligence"... and my very liberating simple-mindedness... I would choose the latter. All over again. Without hesitation.
Trying to have a thological discussion with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall since whenever you get backed into a corner you have a dream or an update from a voice and your position changes or you just ignore the discussion.
First, I would suggest you stop trying to have a "theological" discussion with me, because I don't know HOW to have such. I am not a theologian, I do not think theologically, and don't know HOW to have such a discussion. IF, however, you want to have a TRUTHFUL discussion... about God and Christ... about what has happened with ME... about what I hear or see... HOW... and from WHOM... I am MORE than willing to have that with you.
As for having a dream or update from a voice and changing MY position... or ignoring the discussion - ME? Ignore a discussion??? Surely, you jest! I may not have SEEN a discussion... because I can't always keep up with the board... and so didn't respond... but I have NEVER ignored a discussion...). You will have to show me an example, please. Because I absolutely disagree...
No offense, but I've seen you do that more than once.
Absolutely NO offense taken. But, please, you must show me where you believe I have done this. NOT because I don't think you can (which I truly don't) but because if I HAVE... I must correct it. Dear one, this is not a game with me... not at all! This is about MY salvation. If there is ANYWHERE where I have not been sincere, where it appears I have been deceitful... then I ask you to direct me there. So that I can clarify... or at least take note of and acknowledge MY error.
Again, no offense, I think you are amazingly sincere and brave for speaking up the way you do, but...
Sincere, yes. Brave... no. I am TERRIFIED... virtually every time I have to share something here. Again, this is NOT a game with me. Do you know what it is like to go on an international forum and state, with conviction that, unequivocally, something in the Bible is wrong?? "Theology" doesn't take kindly to such things, dear one, not at all. John Lennon was killed for singing "Imagine there's no heaven." And here I am saying, "I don't care if it's IN the Bible... it is NOT from God." You think I don't KNOW the "risk" in saying such things? I absolutely DO know of it. And yet, I do not hide... who... or what I am... or who I receive such from. And, where necessary, I use the Bible to back up the very thing I was given to share. NOT because I believe in the Bible (I do NOT)... but because there are those that do. THEY need to see it... in writing.
And even THEY very ofen get confused the by "contradictions" in the Bible. If, though, they would look to... and LISTEN to... Christ... they would know which things are TRUE... and which are NOT. In the Bible.
I am not brave, dear NVL, as I have said. I AM foolish. But I am foolish for a very good reason. A worthy reason. Which causes me to have courage, yes, but is not the same thing as being brave. I quake in my boots more often than you or anyone else here (except those who TRULY know me) can ever imagine.
we should probably leave off our discussion ... case in point. And again...
Oh, dear one, I was only trying to give you an out... and the dear people here a rest. Especially after that three page response. I know I'm verbose and long-winded. I know myself and I am honest with myself about myself. I would be MORE than happy to continue this discussion with you... so long as we leave off the barbs and sarcasm. I can't go there with you... and I sometimes feel compelled to when folks speak to me in such a manner. But I can't and so, as the saying goes, sometimes it's best to take one's leave in such circumstances. But if you want to continue, then by ALL means, let's.
Until then, however, I have to move on. Because I believe my point was made ... there it was.
Please see above...
So...what exactly was your point?
That when God "said"... "Let there belight"... what "came forth"... and thus, was "breathed" from Him... when it was "spoken"... was the "Word" of God... Christ... who is the light... and thus, the FORCE... through which... all creation came into being:
"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life (that HE is - John 14:6) was the light of men. And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it. There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.This [man] came for a witness, in order to bear witness about the light (John 8:12) that people of all sorts might believe through him.He was not that light, but he was meant to bear witness about that light. The TRUElight that gives light (LIFE!) to every sort of man (so NOT just those who belong to him, and so NOT simply enlightenment, but LIFE - John 11:25) was about to come into the world."
I now get it more than I ever did before. My Lord had told me this, "explained" it to me. And I thought I understood it. But it wasn't until this thread... and discussing the photon experiment... that I actually GOT it... FULLY understood it.
That... was and is... my point.
I bid YOU peace, dear NVL... and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... free!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
notverylikely

By draw I simply meant agree to disagree.
Sigh...and you complained about not understanding the article earlier when they used a colloquialism? Interesting.
I agree. But then, I don't speak in theological terms. I have nothing to do with theology. Yes, I know, you might want to call what I speak of theology... or "Korean"... but I ASSURE you... it's neither. It's "Chinese"... which is NOT the same thing, as I stated previously. Although there may be similar sounds, even written characters, they don't mean the same thing(s).
The problem comes in because you cannot consistently define what you yourself are saying, regardless of what language you are speaking or not. Korean, Chinese, English, French, Greek, Russian...all can be intertranslated as long as all parties agree on what things mean in their native language. You change often.
however, I did not dismiss the entire experience
You forgot to mention the part where you said he misunderstood his aunt (who are you to judge that?) and that he wasn't paying attention to the songs (again, who are you to judge?), so yeah, you kinda did.
My faith, belief and understanding never changes.
We can agree to disagree on that :)
Brave... no. I am TERRIFIED... virtually every time I have to share something here.
Brave doesn't mean "not afraid". It means doing what you have to do ESPECIALLY when you are afraid.
Oh, dear one, I was only trying to give you an out
I don't need an out. I do think we need to agree on what something means when one of us thinks the other isn't understanding.
I would be MORE than happy to continue this discussion with you... so long as we leave off the barbs and sarcasm.
Fair enough. Well, I might use a *little* sarcasm in jest every now and then, but I'll be sure to use winking smiley or something. I don't think I can ENTIRELY leave off. But it won't be mean :)
I would love to continue this. I REALLY do want to understand what you mean about christ and the photons.

The Word: Earth Created by Sound Waves

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