Let's settle this for once and for all...... is atheism a belief, a non-belief or an anti-belief? (page 12)

Essan

Zid, don't assume people are Theists just because they recognize that Atheism is also a belief.

And, for the sake of accuracy, many of the Scientists who helped to prove "dead wrong" the beliefs you mentioned were Theists. You are presenting it as if this was a struggle between "Theists" and "Atheists", with Atheists being the force for advancement and Theists holding advancement back. That's not accurate.

zoiks

Essan, I understand that you want to define the "primary" or "original" meaning of the word atheist, and then stick to that very narrow definition.

But the fact is that the word has taken on more meaning than it originally had. For example, the Wikipedia article on atheism cites the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy as saying, "Atheism. Either the lack of belief in a god, or the belief that there is none". Also, it cites the Dictionary of Philosophy as saying, "(a) the belief that there is no God; (b) Some philosophers have been called "atheistic" because they have not held to a belief in a personal God. Atheism in this sense means "not theistic". The former meaning of the term is a literal rendering. The latter meaning is a less rigorous use of the term though widely current in the history of thought" (sorry for the cut and paste from Wikipedia, but I don't have access to these original books )

I find it interesting that you also characterize atheists as not only taking "a stance against the concept of god", but "against those who believe in god" as well. You seem very keen on defining atheism as not only a belief but perhaps as a behavior as well. Maybe I have misread you, but that statement sounds fairly defensive in nature.

In any case, there are at least some reputable sources, like those quoted above, that would seem to allow for a broader definition of atheism than you feel comfortable giving to it. Language is alive and more fluid than some of us would like, I guess.

teela(2)

I am going for a great big I DON'T CARE what it is. To me its all just a little irrelevant, it does not matter. When out socially and this topic and the belief in God discussion comes up for me its like watching paint dry.

Essan

Hi Zoiks.

As I've said already in this thread, I'm aware that the original definition of 'atheist' has become adulterated and that some atheists are intentionally trying to redefine the meaning of the word to suit their own agenda. I'm also aware that this attempt is having some success, although the original definition - which Terry dismissively calls a "misidentification" - is still the primary meaning. But I just don't feel this process of blurring meaning and redefinition is legitimate or helpful.

You said:

"I find it interesting that you also characterize atheists as not only taking "a stance against the concept of god", but "against those who believe in god" as well. You seem very keen on defining atheism as not only a belief but perhaps as a behavior as well. Maybe I have misread you, but that statement sounds fairly defensive in nature."

This is where confusion can arise because of this blurring of labels. When I refer to the attitude and actions of "atheists" I'm referring to the original and primary - the real, IMO - definition, I'm not referring to people who call themselves atheists, most of whom aren't actually atheists anyway, while the rest appear to be defining it any way the choose.

The label determines the belief because it was and is clearly defined. The 'ism' determines the philosophy. So when I describe what "atheists" do, I am usually referring to that label. I can't help it if people wrongly adopt the label and don't hold the belief which is inherent in the label or that they get irritated when I point out what the label actually means. Do you see what I'm saying?

Atheism is a belief in the nonexistence of God/s and stance taken against Theism (and hence, Theists). It's reactionary. If people call themselves "atheists" and yet do not hold the positions I just described, then they are not actually atheists, and so my comments don't apply to them. They would know this if they actually knew what "atheist" meant. But it appears that "atheism" now has an many definitions as claimants to the label. It's ridiculous.

And yes, you do misread me, and are in danger of straying into ad hominem :)

(That last line sounds abrupt. It wasn't intended that way. Lol)

undercover

Let's settle this for once and for all......

There's your first mistake.... this will not be settled on this, or any other thread or website. We can argue till the cows come home...and unless God is riding one of them, then atheists, as a group, aren't going to accept the notion that they're using faith for their non-belief.

People who believe in God have to use faith, because without it they have no basis for their belief. Atheists, OTOH, don't need faith for not accepting God, they use observation and logic to reasonably accept that God, as we've been subjected to by religion, does not actually exist. It's not a faith that he doesn't exist...it's the obvservation, or lack thereof actually, of the non-evidence of his existence.

But people who believe in God can't fathom that others are able to operate without faith, so they have to attach to those that oppose what they themselves have to have to accept their own belief...faith.

bohm

Is bickering over a silly semantic question REALLY the most intelligent theists have to say to us "no we dont believe in your god"-people?

cyberjesus

Clearly you haven't read the entire thread.

No, there is no reference to "belief" in 'Athiest'. That is false.

this is such an arrogant statement to make. it doesnt matter how many times its been repeated what that word represents you will stick to your guns and ignore what poeple with no belief in God tell you. We can just copy and paste for 30 more pages and you will still believe what you want to believe.

I dont dont have evidence that God exists therefore I dont have a believe in God...... what did you hear? = I am against God. My belief system is that God doesnt exist. See the point...... Are you still a JW fading? or just recently left? im just curious.

brotherdan

Geeze cyberjesus, you've been reading too many of Terry's posts. You're sound more bitter with ever post you write. Maybe you need to take a nice nap and you'll be in a better mood when you wake up.

undercover

I get bitter when I can't get the qoute boxes to work either...

Let's settle this for once and for all...... is atheism a belief, a non-belief or an anti-belief?

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