My Family

by alice.in.wonderland 209 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter
    There's not a formal arrangement in Jehovah's Organization where elders can abuse children unless they're his own.

    What a red herring! It's not about "formal arrangements", its about a person seeking a position of trust to gain access to minors, especially vulnerable minors in need of an adult role model. Any organization putting people in those positions has a moral obligation to carefully select and investigate those in contact with children. It takes more than a mere criminal background check, because records get sealed (especially for juvenile offenders), names get changed, and people move far away to escape their pasts. It takes a thorough psychological evaluation and years of closely-supervised training to gain an insight into the candidate's true character. The Watchtower organization does not embrace those practices; any man proving himself "spiritual" by putting in long service hours, giving the designated answers to the study questions, not disputing the organization, and in general playing the role of a good witness can move up the ranks to MS, elder, and even beyond.

    Living in denial endangers children. Awake, Witnesses! Do something about it!

  • stillconcerned
    stillconcerned

    These statements from ALICE:

    "Camping is not a congregation function. If a single man wanted to take my daughter camping without any other parents going, I would have told him NO. In fact I would ask what other children were going, contact their parents and tell them this is inappropriate. On one end, there's a parent (adult) that claims (they) had no clue that an alleged sexual predator was amongst them."

    McLean wasn't single, he was married with children. He created activities that would attract kids, all known victims were enticed from Kingdom Halls. Most of his victims came from homes with 'single moms'. I've represented the victims.

    'This man was single with no children.'

    Actually he was married with two children.

    ' It's been stated he molested the same person over a number of years in another media release.'

    One of his MANY victims was a family member, who he raped for many years. I represented her.

    'Before going to the authorities, it's best that there's incrementing evidence against a person so that there's a successful prosecution. Substantial evidence would be; more than one eye-witness, physical evidence or if the abuse is an on going matter (meaning a person knows the same thing is going to happen again). '

    This statement stands in direct opposition to existing mandatory reporting requirements in all states, including the state of California, where McLean was prosecuted. Investigation is undertaken, and evidence is gathered by law enforcement authorities, not untrained laymen, by LAW.

    'In this situation, the criteria for substantial incrementing evidence has been met, however, victims with the cognition to tell the secular authorities about this long standing matter never did for a number of years, and what makes this situation less understandable, is if the victims told the elders, you can be assured they told their parents about the abuse; their parents knew about it. '

    Of the two dozen known victims, one told a parent and was dismissed. The girl who reported to police was encouraged by family and congregational authorities to drop the complaint. Thankfully, she refused.

    'In this story, there are adults (parents) involved that could have told the authorities, but didn't do so over a period of years.'

    What is your basis in fact for this statement? Names? Time frame?

    ' The fact that it is their children that are involved leaves some unanswered questions. Whatever the case, it's these children's parents that are just as liable for acting irresponsibly as the congregation elders. '

    What is your basis in FACT for these statements?

    'If it was my daughter, I could have trapped this man in his actions and seen to it that he was prosecuted with or without the elder's assistance, and upon prosecution the elders would be removed and possibly prosecuted. '

    This is an astonishly naive statement. 'Upon prosecution the elders would be removed and possibly prosecuted'?

    Frankly, you don't have a clue as to the FACTS of this scenario. Interesting that you feel free to fabricate.

    Kimberlee D. Norris

    attorney at law

    Love & Norris

    [email protected]

  • Mary
    Mary

    Thanks for posting that Kimberlee. Alice is an idiot, plain and simple. Don't expect a response from her because she tends to ignore posts on which there is absolutely no rebuttal. Either that, or she'll make some ridiculous post that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. Instead, she'll try switching the topic to the trinity or preaching door to door or something equally as stupid.

    To moronic drones like Alice, there is zero chance of them acknowledging that there is a major problem in the Organization when it comes to reporting child abuse. To acknowledge that would put them on the same footing with Public Enemy No. 1: The Catholic Church. IMO, Alice is a pathological liar and cannot distinguish truth from falsehood. As per her own words, she "learned to lie" at a very young age.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Alice..

    Kim Norris is the Real Deal..

    She is an Experinced Lawyer and a Respected Member of this board..

    Kim Norris..

    Nice to see you on the board again..

    ...................... ...OUTLAW

  • alice.in.wonderland
    alice.in.wonderland

    stillconcerned says, “McLean wasn't single, he was married with children. He created activities that would attract kids, all known victims were enticed from Kingdom Halls. Most of his victims came from homes with 'single moms'. I've represented the victims.”

    “Actually he was married with two children.”

    http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=35566

    Cops say that Frederick "Rick" McLean was described as a loner by those who knew him. An expert mechanic who was financially successful in the business of buying, restoring, and reselling vintage CanAm and open-wheel race cars from the 60's and 70's, McLean lived and worked in the San Diego and Riverside counties of southern California.

    According to US Marshals, McLean was a Ministerial Servant in the Jehovah's Witnesses and was utilizing his position of trust to commit sexual crimes against young girls - some no more than five years old.

    You're not adding any information that confirms anything, you're adding information that conflicts with what's been publicly stated. You would think that with something of this importance, people would get their story straight. What's been stated, is “McLean was a described as a loner by those who knew him and was utilizing his position of trust as a ministerial servant to commit sexual crimes against young girls.” If he was married with two children, that's not who he was.


    'Before going to the authorities, it's best that there's incrementing evidence against a person so that there's a successful prosecution. Substantial evidence would be; more than one eye-witness, physical evidence or if the abuse is an on going matter (meaning a person knows the same thing is going to happen again).'

    “This statement stands in direct opposition to existing mandatory reporting requirements in all states, including the state of California, where McLean was prosecuted. Investigation is undertaken, and evidence is gathered by law enforcement authorities, not untrained laymen, by LAW.”

    http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article23.htm

    In addition to making a report to the branch office, the elders may be required by law to report even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities. If so, the elders receive proper legal direction to ensure that they comply with the law. Additionally, the victim or anyone else who has knowledge of the allegation may wish to report the matter to the authorities, and it is his or her absolute right to do so.

    This wasn't stated in reference to the elders. This was stated in reference to anyone else who has knowledge of the allegation. Under law, the elders may be required to report even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities and this they must do, but if it remains uncorroborated or unsubstantiated it won't lead to a successful prosecution or even the accused being charged. In any community of friends and family, it's best you have something credible to present to the local authorities before you accuse someone of abusing children.


    “Of the two dozen known victims, one told a parent and was dismissed. The girl who reported to police was encouraged by family and congregational authorities to drop the complaint. Thankfully, she refused.

    What is your basis in fact for this statement? Names? Time frame?

    What is your basis in FACT for these statements?

    This is an astonishingly naive statement. 'Upon prosecution the elders would be removed and possibly prosecuted'?

    Frankly, you don't have a clue as to the FACTS of this scenario. Interesting that you feel free to fabricate.”

    http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=35566

    Authorities say that McLean was confronted a number of times over the years by those he molested, but Jehovah's Witnesses judicial committees require two witnesses to an event of molestation before taking any kind of disciplinary action. Detectives believe that by moving from one Kingdom Hall congregation to another, McLean was able to keep his crimes mostly hidden for 25 to 30 years, before finally being "outed" to the general public and "disfellowshipped", or expelled, from the religion.

    As stated above; (additionally, the victim or anyone else who has knowledge of the allegation may wish to report the matter to the authorities, and it is his or her absolute right to do so).

    Unless you have a problem with reading and comprehension, there was plenty of evidence that others had aside from the elders to put this man away. You say one of the victims had an unethical family, but what about the other 23?

    I'm not necessarily blaming the parents as I'm questioning the integrity of the story. Throughout the alleged involvement with this man, the plaintiffs were indignant enough to file suit against the legal organization used by Jehovah's Witnesses, but over a 25 to 30 year time frame, they were never indignant enough to contact to the authorities even though according to this story the perpetrator would have been easy to prosecute. Considering the time frame, they had plenty of time to do so. The plaintiffs seem to have their own flavor of criminal justice. When greed is a motivating factor, people don't necessarily speak the truth. There was obviously something that happened here, this man did do something, but there's also plenty of evidence that suggests this story about McLean was blown way out of proportion by the plaintiffs and the associated press. If there's real evidence to put someone away there's nothing the elders can do to cover anything up. No one is above the law. You didn't represent anyone here. You would at least know what the media has released about this case.

  • Mary
    Mary

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Yet another fine example of Alice's difficulty in trying to grasp the difference between fantasy-land and the real world.

    Time to get that thorazine drip changed Al-ass.

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    Alice,

    Are you seriously quoting America's Most Wanted TV Show as an authority in rebuttal to the attorney who actually represented the case in court?

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Alice..

    I`m curious as to exactly how stupid you really are..

    Do you realise you are arguing with a lawyer who actually represented the victims?..

    ..................... ...OUTLAW

  • alice.in.wonderland
    alice.in.wonderland

    "Alice,

    Are you seriously quoting America's Most Wanted TV Show as an authority in rebuttal to the attorney who actually represented the case in court?"

    So what the media states isn't the truth?

  • sherah
    sherah

    PT, Mary and Outlaw beat me to the punch; she's arguing with the attorney who represented the victims. Choosing to accept information from a tv show over someone with first-hand knowledge. Interestingly, this tv show testimony AIW posted doesn't prove her points or answers the questions posed by Kim Norris.

    AIW is always asking for first-hand accounts or proof but when presented with it, falls back on cut & paste gibberish for rebuttal.

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