i like your question. I had it exactly one year ago
CJ, I remember when you and I were not long on this site about one year ago. I first encountered you on PJSchipper's thread and you seemed like you were searching then.
For Shelby, Tec and others who believe in Christ but not necessarily the bible...
by elderelite 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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garyneal
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tec
This is not a religious belief system for people who want to be handed all the answers.
Christ showed us how to love. We love him, and that love both guides and binds us. That is what we share. Not rules and doctrines.
It's wise seeing that your deity is more significant than the words that " pointed to " him. Your god was quoted as also pointing to something within you. Perhaps you don't need a book or a deity.
Thank you for your kind words. And you're right, probably don't need a book. But as for Christ... yes, I do need him. Because knowing him brings me immeasurable peace and joy and love. That is his light, within me... and that love that I have for Him, that He has for us... well, that love makes it impossible for me to ever want to 'dismiss' him.
As a mother, I want my children to be sufficient and live a life of love and kindness and peace - but I would also hope that they wouldn't forget about me either. So while having them be sufficient and living a life of love and kindness and peace would be more important to me than their gratitude... if they knew that and they knew that it was me who taught them those things, then I don't believe that they could leave me.
We want to be with the ones we love... and I truly do love Christ.
Zannadoll - thank you as well. I've been reading and enjoying many of your posts. In fact, I was just hoping that I could be as clear and reasonable when I post in the future.
Jesus is absolutely compelling
He is, isn't he?
Tammy
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AGuest
Greetings, dear Elderelite... and peace to you! First, my apologies for not responding sooner - I did not see your thread until now. Second, to all that answered sincerely... and with loving kindness... the greatest of love and peace to you, and may JAH bless!
I read with great interest that some believe in Christ but notnecessarily the authenticity of the bible... could you please elaborate on that?
I think the best way for me to elaborate is to say that it is summed in two things that Bible itself says. The first is the prophesy by Jeremiah as to the "false stylus of the secretaries"... which is why it contains the second, my Lord recorded as saying, "WOE, to you... scribes." Unfortunately, for all of their wisdom and learnedness... a whole lot of folks don't seem to know what a stylus, secretary... or scribe... is. And for that reason, don't quite get what the prophesy... and my Lord... was actually saying.
I still WANT to believe in Christ but find it difficult, prob as result of not wanting to be burned again... thus I ask.. how do you come to what you believe?
I receive it from my Lord. The Bible is merely a book... a fallible book... that contains scripture, including some of the Law... which is "tutor leading to Christ." The Law... not the Bible. Once Christ arrived... the Law... or tutor... was no longer necessary. Problem is, some believe the Bible to be scripture... indeed, the Law. It is neither. It even tells you that. Some believe it is God's word. It is not. It tells you that. But many don't get this... even those they profess a belief in "Jesus"... because they don't know him. They know OF him... or ABOUT him... but they don't know him. If they did, they would know his name is NOT "Jesus," that he NOT God, that he is NOT dead... but ALIVE... risen FROM the dead... and speaks. To those who listen. I have learned to listen.
after all, everything we know of Jesus comes from the bible...
This is not true. Everything one knows THAT comes from the Bible is because the Bible is the only "source" one looks to. Which is very limiting, if not confusing. I venture to say, however, that you would know a great deal more about ME... by talking with, listening to, learning from, and asking ME... than you would in reading some book that others wrote about me. I mean, that is SO basic... that I marvel at the "intellects" who fail to grasp this very simple truth.
how is it you separate what you accept as true and what is not?
Some things are kind of elementary. For instance, did God unrighteously kill anyone? All I need to do is look at Christ and ask, would Christ unrighteously kill anyone? The answer is no. So, neither would God. But, let's say that doesn't cut it. I ask... would LOVE do/say such a thing? If the answer is no, then it couldn't have been done by God... contrary to what earthling man SAYS... writes... or believes. If it is not so elementary, however, I simply ask: "Is this true/accurate, my Lord?" And he answers: "Yes, child, here is how it occurred." Or "No, child, it is not and I will show you why." Or something similar. And I LISTEN. Then I PUT FAITH IN WHAT I HEAR. And it is AFTER I have put my faith in what I heard... that he SHOWS me where it is written (and not always in the Bible).
find that I question everything now since the "bedrock" that I stood on was shaken.. how do you judge matters?
Yes, you question because you fear. That is what they put IN you. "Little children" do not fear - it is what "adults" TEACH them that cause them to know fear. The same is true for those who belong to God, through Christ. We did not know fear... until they put it IN us. And fear is one of the HARDEST things to shake. So, hard that some have disguised their fear... in anger, bitterness, hatred... even disbelief.
Is it more of a Hebrew scripture/Greek scripture thing?
It is more of a put down your Bible... and open up your ears... and LISTEN. And if you don't have ears... or don't have the faith to HEAR with them... you can ASK... for either. But if you don't ask... you won't receive. And even if you DO ask... if you are doing so for the purpose of pleasing your flesh... satisfying your PHYSICAL sense of hearing... you won't receive anything at all. Because the PURPOSE is not for YOU... but for the building up of the Body [of Christ]. It is a GIFT... not for you to do YOUR will with... but God's... through Christ.
Understand I am not mocking in the least, I truly am interested in how you ended up believing as you do...
I absolutely believe you... and I am directed by my Lord to ask you, dear Elderelite:
WHICH Bible should you look to? WHICH one is accurate, correct, true, infallible? Which version? The Douay has books the others don't have. The NWT has a name throughout that others don't have. One was commissioned by an earthly king. The oldest one (the Septuagint)... was debated and argued over by those who believed it to be VERY inaccurate. Which one, then? And how do you know whether the way the one states something is more or less accurate than the way the other states it?
I would like to leave you with the experience that helped ME understand what the Bible was and was not. In 1997 or so, I was sitting in my living room reading a WT (I don't recall which one) which included the following "Question" in the back:
"What is the truth that sets you free?"
The article went on to state that "It is the truth found in God's Holy Word, the Bible." Now, until that day, I would have absolutely agreed. But... I heard a voice. And that voice said to me, "I... am the Way... and the Truth... and the Life." I heard it distinctly, without mistake. I did not have my Bible open, and while I had read that statement before, yes, I had never UNDERSTOOD it... until that day and that voice spoke it. I almost fell out of my chair. I became SO excited and started shouting so that my ex-husband and visting friends were, like, "What is going ON with you??" And I explained what I heard.
But they all kind of looked at me with blank stares and said, "Yeah, okaaayyy." And I said, "No, you don't understand... HE is the TRUTH... and it is HE who sets us FREE!" At that moment a light came toward me... from nowhere... rushing. I was coming SO fast I felt compelled to duck. But before I could... it "hit" me. Smack dead in the center of my forehead... and left a "mark" there in letters I do not read. It is still there, today. The impact jarred me so, however, that my head did snap back a bit. So, everyone looked at me like, "What the heck is going on with you?"
What had occurred is that because I BELIEVED what I heard... and told these others... I received a "sealing"... in my forehead. But it didn't stop there. My companions still didn't quite grasp what this "truth" was, the magnitude of it. And so, the voice spoke to me again and said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Of course, I had heard THAT before... only I had heard it as most do: "SPEAK the truth, for the truth will set you free." And "SAY the truth, for saying the truth will set you free." And "CONFESS the truth... because you will be set free." And all kinds of things like that.
THIS time, however, the voice said "You will KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free," and for some reason I repeated it, out loud. And so, because I was "acting weird," my dear girlfriend (who posts here from time to time), open the Bible to that verse - John 8:32 - and read it. And then she looked at me, at us, and said, "Oh... my... God." I shouted, "What? WHAT??"... and she read John 8:36. Which says:
"Therefore, if the SON sets you free... you will truly BE free."
And so I learned that day, from my Lord himself... that the Bible is not the truth that sets us free. Nor is it the "truth" contained IN the Bible that sets us free. It is the TRUTH that sets us free... and that Truth... is my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel... JAH... of Armies.
That day... I was set free. TRULY free... so that I no longer needed the Bible to "teach" me anything... but began to learn directly from him. By means of the anointing... and sealing... I had received FROM him.
I heard, dear one... and I put faith in what I heard. From him. That HE is the Truth that sets us free. And I heard... from him... that HE is the Word of God... not some ancient book. That is why that very book, when it records him as saying, "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth..." it is speaking of him. Just as he is the Truth that sets us free... HE... is the Word... and Truth... by means of which we ARE sanctified. The Bible... can neither sanctify/cleanse... or save you. It... cannot give you life. Only HE... THE Life... can do that.
I bid you peace... and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... which water is the holy spirit of God... by means of which we are SANCTIFIED... and CLEANSED... and is the "oil of exultation" by means of which we are CHOSEN... as vessels belonging to God... and which is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... who is MY Lord... and King... FREE!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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elderelite
Shelby,
no apology needed. I make it a habit to assume the best. I have also never noted that you avoid a question. Your answers have been interesting. the concept that "not all scripture is equal" makes sense...
I am however unclear.. or uncertain... how to take some of this... Maybe I'm missing the point but the only way we know that a man named Jesus of Nazareth lived and walked the earth is thru the bible. I clearly get that not all of the bible relates to him but just focusing on the Greek scriptures, thats is how know anything of him at all. So how do you view the gospels, meaning Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? are they absolutely true and correct in all they record? If not, then how can you be sure of any of it? if so, if they are absolutely correct, how about the rest of the Greek scriptures..?
i fully agree that Christian freedom means not having everything spelled out for us. the legalism of the WT is not one of its more lovable aspects..
Your question to me as to which translation.. well clearly I have used the NWT until very recently almost exclusively. I now have multiple translations on my computer that I compare. You points as to the differences makes me again question how we can "know" anything since everything we know, including the fact that he lived and walked the earth, comes from a book that you admit is flawed... i understand that certainty in life is not possible but is your faith based on having heard your lord speak to you? If the things recorded in the bible "point to him" why would he not have made sure they pointed ACCURATELY to him? Did he simply allow things to be written to get the ball rolling but gave no consideration to whether they were truthfully and clear? How can one put faith in him without something solid upon witch to base that faith? If I cannot know him without hearing him, how can I ask to hear him? what comes first? Sorry for so many questions but I am in a confused place..
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donuthole
Elderite --
I'm sure shelby will respond but I can put out how it that I understand it --
The gospels were written either by eyewitnesses to Jesus or by those that came afterword and learned from them. Take the gospel of Luke, he makes no claims to being inspired of God. He is writing to another individual and said that he did his best to write down what he had learned from eyewitnesses in what he believed to be an "orderly account". So it is what it is. There is much truth there but also mistakes here and there.
I like this illustration as imperfect as it may be -- say you have an interest in a famous person. Sure you can read some books about them and maybe learn a great deal. However what you know of them is merely limited to the accuracy of what you read. We also can't discount the fact that the biographers may have added their own feelings that coloured it somewhat. But at the end of the day you could be fairly comfortable you know a lot about that person. However you cannot TRULY know them simply by reading. To TRULY know them you must meet them, spend time with them, be around them.
In the Bible in a couple of places we are invited to KNOW Christ. This is often in the manner of a marriage relationship because no one quite knows you like a spouse - true? The only way to really know Christ, who is, what he is about, is to enter a relationship with him. To be in union with him through the gift of his spirit.
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free2beme
If you believe in a higher power, but not the Bible ... there are a lot of nonChristian religions out there, that you might find are more in line with your thinking and fit you better.
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PSacramento
The biggest issue form most former JW's or Fundamentalists is, is the bible innerrant? and as such, is it to be take literal, every single part of it?
Well, the fact the in the bible itself, there are warnings of the writers altering things for their benefit, that the readers are told to test what they are taught and what they are reading, the fact that there are contridictions and even errors, that fact that soem things passed off as unbreakabel Law in the OT were "downgraded" by the actual Son fo God, the Word of God in the flesh, the fact that scriptures, as mentioned in the OT and NT didin't exist as WE KNOW THEM TO BE TODAY as the bible, well, all that leads one to the possibility that the bible is a grea collection of writings fo ancient man, some inspired and others not so much, a book that POINTS to God and His Son, but does NOT speak for them.
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donuthole
This goes beyond what the OP is asking but according to the prophets when then spirit came we would have a law placed in our hearts and not need one that was written down. It amazes me that people today have turned the Bible into the Law 2.0. They see it as an authority and as an instruction manual. Before I ever came to recognize the Bible for what it is I used to be so frustrated that it never answered what I saw as basic questions for church practice. Now I know that it was never meant to be such. However like the Pharisees of old, you have an oral law (talmud) that gets added on top of the written law (Bible) to fill in these blanks and we are right back in the same soul-crushing mess.
The biggest issue form most former JW's or Fundamentalists is, is the bible innerrant
I have yet to find where the bible claims to even be innerrant. As was mentioned if it is innerrant what Bible are we talking about? The one the Catholics use? The one that the Eastern Orthodox uses? The King James? The New World? Heck, even Martin Luther who brought the idea of "sola scriptura" was determined to remove some of the books that are in the Bible today.
At best they will point to all scripture is inspired of God. OK. So what exactly are we talking about? Cause when that was written the Bible as we have today wasn't even around. Also does "inspired" equal innerrant?
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leavingwt
It amazes me that people today have turned the Bible into the Law 2.0. They see it as an authority and as an instruction manual.
For those who subscribe to Sola Scriptura, you are correct. This includes all Fundamentalists and more than a few Calvinists.
I don't recall where I first read this, but I like it: "The Bible is not a book of detailed theology." <--------- Don't tell the Fundamentalists this.
Like the JWs, some groups have an 'All or Nothing' view of it, very black and white.
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elderelite
Dougnuthole,
I certainly dont mind reading what you or anyone else has to say.. I addressed much of this to Shelby since she speaks on it often but I thank you for your input. I am defiantly of the mind that the a Christian does not need every rule or law written down and certainly see the truth of what PS was saying that the scribes and praises had taken the written law and tried to prove themselves by it, only to have the Christ point out that they had missed the real point. I think I am good with that... but this matter of going beyond the bible, learning Christ outside of it is something I am struggling with. I get the illustration of a husband and wife and that adds up... however I would point out that while Mrs elite knows me like no one else, that is because we interact with each other every day. While one can "walk" with Christ by living according to what we read in the bible, how does one interact with him, in that sort of husband and wife type way?