would Christ unrighteously kill anyone? The answer is no. So, neither would God?
Really? So all those tantrums in the Old Testatment were righteous killings? I often wonder if God suddenly started doing this is our day (which also includes the killing of women and children and babies), how many would give God the thumbs up?
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
For Shelby, Tec and others who believe in Christ but not necessarily the bible...
by elderelite 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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donny
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tec
While one can "walk" with Christ by living according to what we read in the bible, how does one interact with him, in that sort of husband and wife type way?
I think you should ask him. I think you should keep asking.
I personally don't think you should form an idea of what to expect by way of His response, especially not according to other people's experiences. Because one person will have one thing, and someone else another thing. (I say this, because for a time that's what I was doing and so I was getting frustrated that I hadn't had the exact thing that someone else had. And so, I forgot -for a while- how to listen 'in spirit' and to put faith in what I was hearing - in spirit.)
I think you know Christ (and in effect, God) when you know the love He taught. (Know/feel/experience.)
Tammy
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PSacramento
Really? So all those tantrums in the Old Testatment were righteous killings? I often wonder if God suddenly started doing this is our day (which also includes the killing of women and children and babies), how many would give God the thumbs up?
That is kind of the point though Donny, was it God that killed/ordered those killings? or was it just ancient man trying to justify what they did? what they though God condoned based on their limited understanding? maybe both?
Ever notice that if you read the NT and then the OT or read the OT with the "glasses" of "God is love" that soemthing don't mesh up very well at all?
Why is that?
People that believe the bible to be error proof will view this issue a certain way, while others that don't view the bible as ineerant will view them in a different light.
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AGuest
Greetings, dear Elderelite... and the greatest of love and peace to you! Dear Donuthole, PSacto, and leaving responded correctly. There is nothing in what they stated that I would change. However, you have asked some pointed questions and I would like to respond to those, if I may. Thank you!
If the things recorded in the bible "point to him" why would he not have made sure they pointed ACCURATELY to him?
You have to remember, dear one, that the things in the Bible are not what point to him. SCRIPTURE... is what points to him. And what is "scripture" and how do we know? Well, he himself can and will tell you, if you ask. But given the realization that not all have that level of faith, I would ask... for those whose faith IS in the Bible... what does the Bible SAY? IT says:
"Now as they were conversing and discussing, [Jesus] himself approached and began walking with them; but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. He said to them: "What are these matters that YOU are debating between yourselves as YOU walk along?" And they stood still with sad faces.
"So he said to them: "O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?" And commencing at Moses and all the Prophetshe interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.
"And as he was reclining with them at the meal he took the loaf, blessed it, broke it and began to hand it to them. At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: "Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he wasfullyopening up the Scriptures to us?"
"While they were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: "May YOU have peace."
"He now said to them: "These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled."Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures..."Luke 24:15-46 (redacted)
HE told his disciples what WAS "scripture," dear EE... AND... HE... opened their minds so that they could FULLY grasp their meaning. That is why the Pharisees DIDN'T get it: because like most today... THEY... were leaning on their OWN understanding.
Did he simply allow things to be written to get the ball rolling but gave no consideration to whether they were truthfully and clear?
They didn't MATTER... then, when Christ came... and they don't MATTER now. When Christ came the Law was FULFILLED... and a NEW law and NEW covenant came into existence. So that it was... and is... NO LONGER PROFITABLE OR OF BENEFIT TO LOOK AT "MOSES." NOW... we must look at the Son, just as Israel had to look at the copper serpent! The Most Holy One of Israel USED to speak to us by means of the Prophets. And what those ones said was written down so that the people could memorize it. NOW... He speaks... by means of a SON. That some took it upon themselves to write about it doesn't make it "scripture." Scripture is what men write as they are borne along BY the Holy Spirit... and TOLD to write.
How can one put faith in him without something solid upon witch to base that faith?
What, in this world, is more solid... than ROCK, dear one? Indeed, are we not to build our "houses"... UPON "rock"? What is that "rock"? Christ. He is the rock-MASS... and it is faith in HIM... that keeps our "houses" from being washed away... in "storms." Peter put HIS faith in that Rock when he stated that he was the Son of God. But MEN did not reveal that to Peter... nor did the "scriptures." The Most Holy One of ISRAEL revealed it to Peter... and Peter... put FAITH in what was revealed to him. And it was upon his faith IN that truth... that Christ IS the Son of God... and ROCK upon which we are to build... the STONE [of stumbling]. He is the CORNERSTONE of God's temple and it is upon HIM... that the entire house is being built.
If I cannot know him without hearing him, how can I ask to hear him?
You start by OBEYING the LEAST things. Like what he is recorded to have said at John 6:51-53. Such a SMALL thing... and doesn't take any effort whatsoever. But... THEY say you should NOT... even though HE is recorded to have said you most definitely SHOULD. They teach, however, and SO MANY LISTEN TO THEM... HEAR THEM... that such words by our Lord are to be TOTALLY disregarded... for some new-fangled tradition THEY have come up with. And "we" LISTEN to those LIES!
BUT... if you are "faithful" in what is least... you are faithful... in much. The worker does not get paid, dear one, until AFTER he has done the work. It is not enough to say to the one hiring him, "Well, give me my check now, and I'll do the work later." It is not, "Lord, reward me by letting me hear your voice and THEN I will do as you say." It is, "Lord, I KNOW you are speaking and so I will do as you say." Period. And THEN... you can expect a "reward"... being able to hear him MORE. Having HIM "excavate" your ears so that you can here more clearly. He WILL meet you halfway... if you would only get up off the bench.
Just as the Bible says (and it blows me AWAY that folks go around touting it AS the "word" of God, etc., yet they do not LISTEN... even to what IT says HE said!):
“Y ou are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life." John 5:39, 40
Do you see what he is recorded to have said there? First, "you are searching the Scriptures." WHAT "scriptures"? That which was IN EXISTENCE AT THE TIME HE SAID IT. So, the account that RECORDED him saying this... CANNOT BE "scripture." Because the "Scriptures"... were ALREADY written! It was what they were searching.
He also said that they were searching the Scriptures because, like you, dear one... and SO many... they believe the "answer" to life in is them. It is NOT. What is IN them... is a WITNESS... ABOUT the One... who IS the answer... and has the answers. The One... who can lead us... into ALL truth. Because... HE is the Truth! BUT... they didn't want to come... to HIM... just as you... and so many others... also do not want to do, today.
Like Thomas, you need to have your "sensual pleasures" sated. You need to see, hear, taste, touch, and smell... with your FLESH. But what does the Bible say that my Lord said to Thomas? After asking him whether he believed... because he saw... he is recorded to have said, "Happy are those... WHO DO NOT SEE... and yet, believe."
I say to you, dear EE... that if you MUST put your faith in the Bible, then at least put it in what the Bible says... about CHRIST... and then, AS OF THE NEW COVENANT. Because the OLD one was DONE AWAY with... by means OF Christ. And, if you still keep going back to that, then a veil will lie upon YOUR heart... that the glorious goods news that IS Christ... CANNOT shine through. You will NOT be able to see... OR hear... him... because the Law... will stand in your way. Just as Israel could not gaze upon the glory that Moses brought back with him... you will not be able to gaze upon the glory... of Christ. You will "see"... but only the Old Law. And you will blind... and deaf... as a result.
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
what comes first? Sorry for so many questions but I am in a confused place..
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just n from bethel
Hey Elderelite:
Thought I would chime in with my take on all these 'personal revelationists'. There are some major problems with taking them seriously.
The biggest problem I see is how adamant they still are about their new-found worldview/belief system. When you compare them with non-believers, athiests, 'I-don't-knowers', etc. the big elephant that stands out is that the latter are open to being shown any kind of substantive facts that would change them into a believer. They are open for possiblities of supernatural higher powers, of Christ being the Lord, etc.
Whereas on the other hand, the personal revelationists are not open in any way, shape, or form, to the idea that these visions and voices they've had are simply generated from their own mind. The point is that they, like most of us here, have been duped by a religion. Now most of us are moving on and are determined to never be so dogmatic about unsubtantiated belief systems again. Some may profess to a set of Judeo-Christian beliefs of some sort - which is fine. But we all hope that we would never be duped again by any idea without factual backing. But what these personal revelationists are not open to - is the possibility that their own mind has been playing tricks on them. I'm not saying that they have to admit they're being duped by their brain, just that they should be open to the possibility that their claimed voices, dreams, and visions - COULD POSSIBLY be an effect of their internal uncontrolled neurolgical activity.
So to me - that lack of openmindedness is still just too reminiscent of JW dogmaticism. Until they admit that their ideas could possibly not be from an external invisible creature, I don't see the point in looking to such ones as a reliable source for answers.
But I also liken it to the conclusion that we've all probably come to at one time or another. Many JWs, particularly older ones, are so emotionally intertwined with their JW belief system, that it probably is better they live out the rest of their life without having their beliefs undermined at this point. The same goes for these personal revelationists - I mean can you imagine if they woke up one day and realized that all their voices and visions had been coming from their own mind? Many of these folks have families and a life they're relatively happy with. A realization that they have duped themselves - after they promised not to be duped again like they were by the WT! Well we all know how that would end. It's one thing to be duped by an organization and indoctrinations of others. But how does one handle being duped by their own mind? It would likely be just too much for such ones. Which is why I think they cannot even be open to the possibility that they're wrong.
The fact is, not one of these folks have ever addressed the point raised over and over about the many people who have revelations of their hindu gods, or of their muslim god, or Buddha - all of which are just as strong and real as these so-called Christian revelations. I mean seriously, if you were to travel to India and ask the same question you're asking to these revelationists, you'd get basically the same answer - just a different god.
Anyway - I'm not saying that we don't need anwers. I need them too - but I do hope it's obvious that answers that come in the style of similar JW dogmaticism, but with just a different name to it, well I at least hope you're open to the possibility that such sources are even crazier than the WT. Just be careful bro - that's all I'm saying- and I know you will.
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just n from bethel
Oh and by saying be careful - I don't mean "be careful" like these revelationists and their beliefs could dupe you - I know you're not going to fall for nonsense without reliable backing from anonymous internet posters. I just mean be careful in the sense you don't waste too much time on such dialogue - we've got a life to live now. Speaking of which I'm sending you a pm. - take care.
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donuthole
Whereas on the other hand, the personal revelationists are not open in any way, shape, or form, to the idea that these visions and voices they've had are simply generated from their own mind
I speak about what I know from my own experience and honestly it is more than "voices in my head". I have heard, seen and experienced things from the same source that leave me no choice but to believe. There were times when I was a little hesitant to believe and listen to that voice, and the Lord in his abundant graciousness was kind enough to provide "proof" which I didn't really need, but maybe thought I needed, for my own lack of faith. Now I understand that isn't your experience and if I were in your shoes - I dunno - maybe I would be saying the same thing. But now that I know the truth how can I deny it? I can only speak what I know to be true and it is simply this Jesus is open for those who want to come to him and sit by him and listen to him just as he did 2,000 years. Open your heart.
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elderelite
Let me say I have enjoyed reading the responses and I thank Shelby, tec, Doughnuthole and everyone who took the time to respond. My question though remains... I keep hearing you say that the bible is only a guide, that it is not infallible , it is only the recollections of men etc.ect... my problem is still that all we know about Jesus comes from the bible. Consider.. you mentioned that you compare these communications with the lord to what is in the bible... but again, you dont believe the bible is completely accurate.. so what is the "gold standard"? if you compare these voices you hear to something that you say you dont believe is completely accurate... what is the yard stick by which you judge the truthfulness of the inspired utterance? again, I understand nothing is certain in life, but if we are directed to compare the utterance, and the word we compare it too is not perfect... i'm at a loss to know how you can be sure what you hear is from the lord.
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notverylikely
That is kind of the point though Donny, was it God that killed/ordered those killings? or was it just ancient man trying to justify what they did? what they though God condoned based on their limited understanding? maybe both?
Good point. Did Jesus really say that stuff about love and forgiveness, were those ideas in any way original or did they pre-date Jesus by at LEAST 2000 years in Babylonian texts?
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AGuest
my problem is still that all we know about [Jesus] comes from the bible.
All YOU know, perhaps, dear JIFB (again, peace to you). But that is not the case with everyone.
Consider.. you mentioned that you compare these communications with the lord to what is in the bible...
Who says that? Certainly not ME...
but again, you dont believe the bible is completely accurate..
It isn't. It SAYS it isn't. C'mon... if you read a book today that SAID the copiers' pens wouldn't remain true... if it contained accounts by the One about whom it is supposed to be relating about SAYING "woe" to the copiers of it... c'mon... would you REALLY tell yourself, "Well, I guess I can believe EVERYTHING that's in there!"??
so what is the "gold standard"?
Christ.
if you compare these voices you hear...
It is one voice. That is, unless one is given the gift of 'hearing' spirits... in which case it may be more... even many more. But there is only ONE that should be listened to, primiarly. Christ's. On rare (very rare) occasions, you might also hear God's (as did John the Baptist)... but it's highly unlikely. The Most Holy One of Israel rarely speaks Himself, though...
to something that you say you dont believe is completely accurate... what is the yard stick by which you judge the truthfulness of the inspired utterance?
Christ himself, first, if you have the faith to do that. Love, next.
again, I understand nothing is certain in life, but if we are directed to compare the utterance, and the word we compare it too is not perfect... i'm at a loss to know how you can be sure what you hear is from the lord.
You compare it to the PERFECT Word. Christ.
Did Jesus really say that stuff about love and forgiveness,
He did... and does, dear NVL (peace to you!)... and dear WaterSprout just openly professed he did with her.
were those ideas in any way original...
They were...
or did they pre-date Jesus by at LEAST 2000 years in Babylonian texts?
Nothing pre-dates Christ, dear one. True, he didn't manifest in the flesh in THIS world... until perhaps 2,000 years after Babylonian texts... but HE existed LONG before Babylon was ever thought of. Or Shemer (Sumer). And the Most Holy One of Israel was also the God of Babylon. They just "forgot" that, for some time. Abraham was a BABYLONIAN. He was FROM Ur... which was a city-state of Sumer... in the land of Chaldea... which fell to Babylon. And before Abraham, my Lord was.
C'mon, folks. I'm not making these things up. And some of you can see from my understanding of other things, I'm really NOT that "bright." They are NOT my own... but what I receive from my Lord.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA