To the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with...

by AGuest 64 Replies latest jw friends

cognizant dissident

Shelby:
I don't know if you realize how judgemental and condescending you come across. You judge whether someone has light or darkness within themselves. You speak as if you know who is being blessed and who isn't. You determine what is an uplifting story or not.
Some of us didn't find the story that uplifting. That isn't because we don't have compassion for the homeless, or respect for a good deed being done.
That's because we could see the "darkness" of ego rearing its ugly head in the context of the so called "good" deed. That doesn't mean buying the guy a hamburger wasn't a good deed. It was. Loudly proclaiming it for all the restaurant to hear and bullying the McDonald's employees were not good deeds. Any deed can contain components of both good and evil at the same time.
The world, people, and their deeds, are not black and white.
AGuest

Shelby:
Peace to you, dear CD...
I don't know if you realize how judgemental and condescending you come across.
I think that would depend on who you asked, but, yes, I am sure some... perhaps like you... would feel that way. Truth... and articulation of truth... usually is considered judgmental... and condescending... when in fact, it's only truth. But no judgment... and certainly no condescension.
You judge whether someone has light or darkness within themselves.
I don't judge, dear CD, not at all. That someone is light/dark inside is borne out by what comes OUT of them (i.e., what is "within" them... manifesed in some way. For instance, by what they SAY). Here, I just addressed what I saw (the words themselves)... and as a result hear (what is "behind" the words)... coming out. Even, then, I don't judge them for it. To their own master(s) they'll stand or fall. My obligation is to pray for them.
You speak as if you know who is being blessed and who isn't.
First, what do you mean by "blessed"... because NONE of those who currently display darkness would use that word. Second, let's determine "blessed"... with what? Riches? I have NO idea. Holy spirit? Yes, that I have an idea about. Which are you speaking of, if either? If neither, what, pray tell, ARE you speaking of... when you say "blessed"?
You determine what is an uplifting story or not.
Well, dear CD... I am thinking that I CAN determine what is an uplifting story... to ME. And this was... to ME. As I stated. And since I thought it WAS... to ME... I shared it with other... LIKE me... who I thought would find it uplifting, as well. And guess what? They DID!! Now, did I think it would be uplifting to EVERYONE? Not at all. Hence... the TITLE of the thread. If you go back and read... it WAS uplifting to those of that Household who are here... and were compelled to say that it was uplifting to them. Given that, may I ask you... why are YOU in the thread?
Some of us didn't find the story that uplifting.
By "us" you mean whom?? I would wager to say that "us" does NOT include "The Household of God, Israel, and those who go with"... whom I addressed?
That isn't because we don't have compassion for the homeless, or respect for a good deed being done.
Oh, sure it is...
That's because we could see the "darkness" of ego rearing its ugly head in the context of the so called "good" deed.
You "SEE" that... because your "eye"... isn't simple. Rather than rejoicing that a good deed was done... that someone DID a good did... that another BENEFITTED from the good deed... you CHOSE... to "SEE"... something bad. You came... LOOKING to find fault... and so "found" what you WANTED to find. You (i.e., the "us" that you refer to)... "SAW"... what you WANTED to "see." The "bad" in the situation. You (i.e., the "us" that you refer to)... "SAW" that... because, again, YOUR (i.e., the "us" that you refer to)... "eye" WASN'T simple... but wicked. And thus, the "light" that is in YOU (i.e., the "us" that you refer to)... is dark. And that darkness truly IS great.
That doesn't mean buying the guy a hamburger wasn't a good deed. It was.
Then that was all that really needed to be said, wasn't it?
Loudly proclaiming it for all the restaurant to hear and bullying the McDonald's employees were not good deeds.
So funny. SO funny. First, there is NOTHING to indicate that the dear giver spoke loudly. Not one thing. And I know he didn't because in ALL of the years I have known him, I have NEVER known him to speak loudly... or even harshly. To anyone. About anything. Indeed, he is a man of fairly LITTLE speech. Ever.
Second... I spoke with the dear one about it today - he was not only almost devasted by the response from some of "you"... but even said, "Why would anyone WANT to do good, if this is how people respond when they learn of it." I didn't tell them. I didn't blow my own horn. What is WRONG with people?? Of course, I had to apologize for putting the event out there - he related it to ME... and I chose to share it. WITH those whom I knew would appreciate it. I also had tell him to totally ignore "you" idjits, of course.
But he asked me, "Where did they get that there was a scene??? I didn't even know people were watching until I turned around. I was speaking SOFTLY. It was the first employee's volume that brought attention to the matter... and I even lowered my voice further!" And... the entire event lasted less than five minutes.
But, because of "your" darkness... "you" all jumped to the conclusions... in YOUR dark minds and hearts... that there was some kind of fiasco going on. You SAW... what you WANTED to SEE: what you came here for - fault. First with me... and when that wouldn't fly... with the hungry man... and when THAT didn't fly... with the dear giver. The fact that you can't "see" THAT... for all of your self-proclaimed abilities TO "see" is simply more evidence OF that darkness.
Any deed can contain components of both good and evil at the same time.
I disagree. Utterly.
The world, people, and their deeds, are not black and white.
Not that I said they were, but didn't YOU just make a "black and white" statement? I.e., "Loudly proclaiming it for all the restaurant to hear and bullying the McDonald's employees were not good deeds." EVEN though you've entirely misrepresented what occurred... based on YOUR "blind" sight. You read some words... no, "YOU" tried to read BETWEEN the words... and then created a totally FALSE occurrence. TOTALLY false. Because, of course, "YOU" were there... and know EXACTLY the volume of the entire event.
"All the restaurant to hear." Where in the world did you get THAT idea? A few people STANDING CLOSE BY constitutes "all the restaurant? "Bullying the McDonald's employees." Where did you get THAT idea? Because someone asserted themselves when another told them no... with absolutely NO explanation?
You got those ideas... from your own "sight"... which is the result of your own... darkness. Which is IN you.
I'm sorry...
You should be. Truly. I say that in ALL sincerity and truth. You should be sorry... and hopeful. Primarily, that you... or anyone YOU love... is never in a similar situation (not just needing someone to buy them a meal... but have to assert themselves to do it!).
My peace remains, dear CD.
A slave of Christ,
SA
cognizant dissident

Well now you can add blatant dishonesty to judgemental and condescending.
First of all, I notice you quote words I never said in my post, "I'm sorry". I'm not sorry, and for you to post them and put them in a quote box as if I did is very self-serving.
Secondly, you twist the words of your original story. Did you think I was incapable of going pack to the first post and re-reading it to see if I was indeed imagining things?
You say there is NOTHING in the story to indicate the dear giver spoke loudly? How about these words:
And in the nicest, coldest, firmest, and somewhat loud, voice, I said:
Where did I get the idea that all the restaurant could hear and that it was not just a few people? Why, from these words that you posted, of course:
The line of
quite a few men behind me were listening
and looking as if they were wondering how it was going to turn out.
Where did I get the idea he bullied a McDonald's employee? Why from these words that YOU posted:
The young girl behind the counter said: Huh, we can't serve him. I said: He's hungry. You're going to serve him and I'm buying it. She called for her manager because it was the manager who issued this non-service order for all the girls behind the counter. The young girl said, I'm sorry, but we can't serve him.
S o your friend tried to pressure a young girl to be insubordinate to a direct order of her manager. And when she checked and the order was reiterated to her he insisted she break it again. If that's not bullying I don't know what is. Your friend had no authority over the girl and no authority over McDonald's restaurants to order them to serve someone they had banned from their restaurant. McDonald's does not owe your friend an explanation because its none of his business. My son is a McDonald's manager and he often bans people from the restaurant, homeless and sometimes rich spoiled brats too. They are banned for bad behaviour and breaking the rules and disturbing other patrons, no other reason. No one is banned for being homeless or hungry.
Your friend asked why would someone want to do a good deed if that's the response he is going to get?
Well, how about because it is the right thing to do, regardless of the response he gets. The question itself simply proves my original point, that his ego was involved. The good deed was supposed to be for the homeless man wasn't it, not for everyone to praise and give him accolades?
You ask why I'm here? I opened the thread to read an interesting story. I had no bias when I started and I was looking for anything, wrong or right. I drew my conclusions based upon the words you had written and the friends actions as you described them. You take it upon yourself to judge my "dark heart" based upon nothing, but a refusal to consider the fact that your friend might have been out of line.
AGuest

Well now you can add blatant dishonesty to judgemental and condescending. First of all, I notice you quote words I never said in my post, "I'm sorry".
Hey, I did what I always do, der CD (peace to you!): copied the entire post so as to respond line by line. If it's not there NOW... well, there IS an editing capability. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt... and apologize. Apparently, the words just appeared... out of nowhere... and then disappeared... the same way...
I'm not sorry
Okay, then you're not sorry. Again, however, you should be...
and for you to post them and put them in a quote box as if I did is very self-serving
I stand by my posting "method"... but if you say they weren't there... okay. Could be it was something leftover from another's post that I had intended to respond to (I don't think so, but I could be wrong so...). At any rate, it was not my intention to misquote you. I've been coming here a LONG time, dear one, and if nothing else even the ridiculers can vouch for my sincere intent.
Secondly, you twist the words of your original story. Did you think I was incapable of going pack to the first post and re-reading it to see if I was indeed imagining things?
I did not twist, but I did make an error. You see, as I said, I know the giver. And I know what is "loud" to him. AND... I know the particular McDonald's (we live in the same region and I've actually had lunch with this dear one, IN that McDonald's). In order for ALL to hear... he would have had to shout. Truly.
You say there is NOTHING in the story to indicate the dear giver spoke loudly? How about these words:
And in the nicest, coldest, firmest, and somewhat loud, voice, I said:
I stand corrected. I won't even restate that what is "loud" to this person is NOT what you and I would call loud. But, since he DID make that statement... I must recant. He did speak loudly...
Where did I get the idea that all the restaurant could hear and that it was not just a few people? Why, from these words that you posted, of course: The line of quite a few men were listening and looking as if they were wondering how it was going to turn out.
Again, you gotta know the McDonald's: it wouldn't have been ALL the restaurant, I promise you. BUT... "quite a few" would indicate more than a few. And since it was probably lunch hour... there would have been more than a few. So, I recant, there as well; however, it wouldn't have been all of the restaurant, not by a long shot...
Where did I get the idea he bullied a McDonald's employee? Why from these words that YOU posted: The young girl behind the counter said: Huh, we can't serve him. I said: He's hungry. You're going to serve him and I'm buying it. She called for her manager because it was the manager who issued this non-service order for all the girls behind the counter. The young girl said, I'm sorry, but we can't serve him.
You consider that bullying??
So your friend tried to pressure a young girl to be insubordinate to a direct order of her manager.
Well, that may be true. And I shouldn't be surprised that that is all you see from the account. I will encourage my friend to read your position. Although, I must say that I believe he SHOULD have done what he did... because it got the man fed. Some believe a certain level of civil disobedience does have its place and time, dear CD. Perhaps the giver felt this was one of those places... and times.
And when she checked and the order was reiterated to her he insisted she break it again. If that's not bullying I don't know what is.
Not sure I got that. I got that she called for the manager... who was also a young girl (I could be wrong)... who reiterated the policy.
Your friend had no authority over the girl and no authority over McDonald's restaurants to order them to serve someone they had banned from their restaurant. McDonald's does not owe your friend an explanation because its none of his business. My son is a McDonald's manager and he often bans people from the restaurant, homeless and sometimes rich spoiled brats too. They are banned for bad behaviour and breaking the rules and disturbing other patrons, no other reason. No one is banned for being homeless or hungry.
You are right, dear CD. God forbid a policy is broken and a hungry person is fed as a result. But you are right... law/establishment policy is god.
Your friend asked why would someone want to do a good deed if that's the response he is going to get?
He did.
Well, how about because it is the right thing to do, regardless of the response he gets.
How about because it's the right thing to do... in spite of the policy of McDonald's? Oh, no, I guess you don't see that.
The question itself simply proves my original point, that his ego was involved.
Perhaps. But so what, dear CD? So he wasn't pristeen. But... A HUNGRY MAN GOT FED. And this one was willing to embarass himself (if that's what needed to occur)... to make sure that happened. If I were him... I would never frequent a McDonald's again (well, I actually don't). Certainly not that one...
The good deed was supposed to be for the homeless man wasn't it, not for everyone to praise and give him accolades?
What do you CARE? Does it MATTER whose ego was involved?? Is that really all you SEE??
You ask why I'm here? I opened the thread to read an interesting story. I had no bias when I started and I was looking for anything, wrong or right. I drew my conclusions based upon the words you had written and the friends actions as you described them.
Given the title? Oh, c'mon. You had NO idea whether there was story, interesting or otherwise... and you KNEW it wasn't for you. There's nothing you could ever learn from ME...
You take it upon yourself to judge my "dark heart" based upon nothing, but a refusal to consider the fact that your friend might have been out of line.
I don't judge your heart, CD... I simply see it. It was a good deed, perhaps implemented imperfectly. So what? So... all "you" saw was, first, MY ego... and when that didn't fly (because I wasn't the giver)... the giver's ego... NEITHER of which had anything to do with anything. Did the giver feel good about what he did? Of course he did. We ALL feel good... when we DO good. So there is definitely SOME ego involved. But this wasn't about my ego... or the giver's ego... or the hungry man's.
Yet, that is ALL "you" saw. Because your eye ISN'T simple... and so the "light" in YOU... is dark. I said it before, I am saying it now... and I will say it again... so long as what you currently "SEE"... is what you see.
My peace remains, for now.
A slave of Christ,
SA
cognizant dissident

I agree with you that sometimes there is a time and place for civil disobedience. For instance when a law is ethically wrong and harmful to someone.
However, McDonald's is a private establishment, not a civil one, so your analogy doesn't apply. The patrons are guests of the establishment, and legally the restaurant has the right to refuse service to people who do not abide by the rules of the establishment that are set for the comfort and enjoyment of the majority of customers as is true of any restaurant as long as they do not violate anyone's civil rights. McDonald's policy of banning disruptive customers is not responsible for the homeless man going hungry. Doubtless, it is his own life choices and behaviour. Still, that is no reason for someone who wants to show compassion not to do so.
Your friend could easily have fed the man without any of the loud, bullying behaviour towards the McDonald's employees. Since, your friend did not know why the man was banned, he has no way of knowing whether the banning was just or not, so no reason to disobey the ban. The man told him he was banned and he insisted the man go into the restaurant, even though he was sheepish about it. If that isn't looking for a confrontation I don't know what is?
Yes, I do consider what he did to the young girls at the counter bullying.
Why do I care? My son is a manager at McDonald's. He is regularly assaulted, verbally and at times physically, by angry and obnoxious customers of all sorts. I shared this story with him and he said he would have asked your friend to leave as well as the other man.
Why did I open this thread. As I said, looking for an interesting story or topic. You're right I didn't know it would be on the topic it was. So what? I responded to the topic I found. I came looking for nothing and responded to what I found. Why did you post it only to those of God and Israel? Trying to create an exclusionist group? This is a public discussion forum and EVERY thread is open to EVERYONE on this forum and you very well know that.
It is only your own hugely inflated ego that allows you to think you can see my heart. You cannot see it, but you do judge, judge, judge it. I don't judge your friends heart or yours. Only his behaviour and yours. His was bullying and confrontational. Yours was dishonest. I did not edit "I"m sorry" out of my post. If you added it in, by mistake because it was left over from someone else, I accept that. It was still a self-serving mistake which allowed you to lecture me on what I should be feeling. Don't know how you can arrive at that conclusion without condescending to be the judge.
As I mentioned, my son works at a Mcdonald's in an area rife with homeless drug addicts and prostitutes. I give handouts to them all the time. I also support a program that gives intensive long term care to help them get off the streets. I manage to do all of this with my atheistic black heart and without ever getting agitated with young McDonald's employees who are just doing their job. Everyone has to be accountable for the consequences of their behaviour, including the homeless, hungry, addicted, or whomever.
Question: If your friend's good deed made him feel so good, why did he say he left feeling agitated? He insisted that they serve the man, and they served the man, so he got what he wanted and the hungry man got fed. So what is there to be agitated about? Is it possible that he had got himself worked up into a self-righteous anger that Mcdonald's was refusing to let someone in their restaurant without ever knowing the reasons why?
OUTLAW

Good evening (((Shelby!)))..
From time to time..I engage in acts of Random Kindness myself..
Don`t expect everyone to understand it..
I`ve been burned by it..Taken advantage of..
It only taught me to read people better..
I got better at judging who really needed my help..

The hungry guy could have Pissed Off the restaurant management numerous times,before your friend came along..
Your friend could have helped him quietly..He will learn as he goes along..
There is no instruction manual for helping people who need it..
I`m sure this will be a learning lesson for him..
............................... ...OUTLAW
AGuest

I stand by everything I said, dear CD... even now. Nothing has changed. You believe the young lady was "just doing her job." I agree with that. And perhaps the giver shouldn't have made it "her" problem. But IMHO, that was, perhaps, another thread, if it was a thread at all. THIS thread... was about a good deed... and encouragement to others. NOT a PERFECTLY good deed... for none of us are perfect. And yes, ir was directed to those I addressed (which I did because (1) I can, (2) folks post to exclusive audiences here all the time, and (3) I really was directing my words to them).
You are probably right, that the giver probably could have done it another way - heck, we can all do a lot of things another way... a "better" way. As I said, he's led a pretty sheltered life and probably didn't get... "see"... that someone would actually have a problem with someone offering to feed someone who was hungry. Really, WHO should have such a problem? Oh, that's right, I know: those of us who are "better" than the homeless, drug addicts, alcoholics, prostitutes, etc.
You didn't judge my friends heart... or mine. Of course you did: that is what determining what another's motive starts with. According to you, he did it to appease his ego. And apparently I posted it to appease mine. YOU are the one stating that you "know" what's in another... without any proof of substantiation. On the other hand, I haven't judged your heart - you REVEALED it. Openly.
What came out of the giver was a desire to give... and a willingness to take on whoever in order to do so. What came out of me... was a desire to share an uplifting account with others. Another "give." What came out of YOU... was condemnation... for both. That's was judges DO, dear CD - "decide" whether someone is "guilty" of a "crime" or not. Which you and others decided here.
A man overstepped an establishment's policy... in order to show love and mercy. He obeyed God... rather than man. I hope he does it again. I hope everyone has the PRIVILEGE to do it, at some point in their life. Including your dear son who might overstep his own company's policies, should mercy CALL for it.
The bottom line is summed up, however, in your own words:
"... sometimes there is a time and place for [civil disobedience]. For instance when a law is ethically wrong and harmful to someone."
I would only change it to, "... when a law (or company "policy", which IS a "law" for the employees of the company)... is ethically wrong, unjust, unmerciful... and harmful to ANYONE."
My peace remains, dear CD.
A slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

Greetings, my dear OUTLAW (peace to you!)... and WELCOME BACK! You've been greatly missed by quite a few, including yours truly -
He will learn as he goes along..
I hope he doesn't. I hope he doesn't begin to concern himself with whether the person is "deserving" or not. If he has it to give, he should give it... regardless of the circumstances of the person asking. If he doesn't... then he SHOULDN'T. And if he does, he should do so without concern for how it will be used. That is not the POINT of giving - indeed, it defeats the purpose. And he shouldn't be concerned that he gave perhaps too much. Giving... for US (the Body of Christ)... is a gift to God, dear one... and it is HE who will repay us... every dime. I have learned this to be true, that whatever I "measure" out... is given back to me... double, triple, even more. Heck, even philanthropic non-believers believe this!
There is no instruction manual for helping people who need it..
I mean NO disrespect, and you KNOW this, dear one... but need there be? Do we really need... WANT... a book on how to GIVE? Yes, I know they're out there, but for WHOM?
I`m sure this will be a learning lesson for him...
Oh, I am sure it is. I think it was also a lesson for those who were there... especially the man who received a meal. I bet no one has ever put themselves out for him like that... that the whole foundation for his "life" as it is now has been "no else one gives a damn, so why should I?"... and that undermining kind of thinking was stymied that day... if only for a moment. Sometimes, though, all it takes is a moment... and one kind act.
But... I "hear" you... and I will pass those thoughts on, truly.
Again, welcome back - it's good to "see" you... and may JAH bless!
YOUR servant, friend, and a slave of Christ,
SA
OUTLAW

Hey Shelby!..
Thanks your a Sweetheart..
I was in a outdoor shopping mall..
A guy came up to me and said he had`nt eaten in days..Could I give him money for a burger?..
Of course..I could afford it..

I wandered around and was eventually at the liquor store..One of my favorite stores..LOL!!
There was the same guy,in a convertable with the top down..Counting out the money he had hussled from alot of people..
His partner went in the liquor store and got them liquor,with the money they had hustled..Some of it from me..
I walked right up to the guy sitting in the car and told him,his buddy would be out of the liquor store soon with his burger..LOL!!..
I made him very uncomfortable..He deserved it..LOL!!..

You should be very decerning,when you try to help someone..
If you help someone who does not need your help..That takes away from someone who does..
Everyone,only has so much to give..It should go to the right people..Not wasted on lazy hustlers..
There is merit in both CD`s remarks and yours..
There is also a middleground..That can only be learned only through life experience..
Feeding the hungry guy was a cool thing to do..How it was done could be improved,but thats really not important..

There are 3 things to consider..
The hungry guy..The management who has probably dealt with this guy before..And..The good Sameritan..
Each have thier own story..
Some good came from all this..Everyone involved,needs to cut the others some slack..
And..
Concentrate on the good that was done..
It`s good to talk with you again my Friend..

Cognizant Dissident..
I`ve managed many shops..I realise what your son has to go through..
That being said..
I can assure you Shelby is a very kind and loving person..
With no inflated ego..She simply cares..
I wish you both the best..
............................... ...OUTLAW
AGuest

Again, I "hear" you, dear Outlaw. Truly.
Peace to you!
Your servant, friend, and a slave of Christ,
SA

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