Evidence! How did you come to know reality?

by zannahdoll 120 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    There is no ad-hominem. Asking who doesn't have a bias isn't an attack on you, it isn't accusing you of anything.

    Correct. But you specifically said "You are tainted with an atheist bias." That is not a question. It's an attacking statement designed to undermine the credibility of my arguments. It's an ad hominem attack. Out of context quote and now ad hominem...tsk tsk zannahdoll. One might begin to wonder why you have to resort of such obvious fallacious debate tactics.

    I can dig you up real people who didn't start off Catholic who believe in the Marian Apparitions.

    Sure. Go for it. I can dig up Catholics that rape little boys. Imaginary friends that listen to silent invisble sky people come in all sorts.

    The examples you gave are still based on "overwhemloing physical, repeatable evidence" but did not show that that evidence was regardless of faith.

    Of course it was. The sun rises regardless of your faith or lack thereof. Jump off a building and gravity will still work regardles of faith . Done. Evidence provided. Next.

    Just saying that it is regardless of faith doesn't make it so.

    No shit. That's what the evidence is for. See above examples.

    Here is a perfect example of taking what I said out of context instead of the whole concept:

    Also, I proved that not all things that atheists "take" need "proveable, demomstrable testable and repeatable evidence" - an example you gave me of this is you wearing a pink shirt.

    I never argued that personal experience = reality.

    Except that you haven't shown how that's out of context quote mining. You just quoted yourself, not me. I am not sure how you quoting yourself somehow in your head proves I quoted you out of context in a blatant attempt to change the meaning of the original, as you so blatantly, dishonestly and obviously did with me.

    What I am saying is that what an atheist, using your words "takes" to know reality isn't always on all this provable, demonstrable, testable, repeatable, etc... blah blah blah evidence

    You can say whatever you like. That doesn't make it so, no matter how much you quote out of context or use personal attacks. Besides which, no one ever said it was "always" based on anything. What you were saying is that atheists based their ideas on just as much faith as jesusy people do on their invisible sky friend. That is not so at all no matter how much you want to be so.

    The one point/concept I make is the same, has not changed once:

    I agree. It hasn't changed. It is still wrong, however.

    I also cut and paste from wiki that the problem with evidence is our limited knowledge.

    Like when you try to argue about falsifiability without knowing what it means.

    Okay, I'm getting off the merry-go-round because I can't imagine anything new you have to say except that you will continue to put me down saying "how cute" I am for putting you down or misquoting you - now that is an implied ad hominem because you are being sarcastic.

    Oh, you don't know what an ad hominem attack is? It's when I try to make your argument seem weak by attacking you as a person or implication that calls your judgement into question. I never did that. I pointed out when you were ignorant of things like falsfiabilitly and the basic tenets of the scientific method, but pointing out where you are factually wrong is not an ad homimen. When you quote people out of context, argue about subjects you later admit complete ignorance ... why the heck would I need to call you as a person into question? You did that for me.

    Oh, I never imply sarcasm. I am pretty direct about it most of the time.

    If you met me in person you might think I am cute without the sarcasm.

    Probably. I dig crazy chicks :)

    Still friends? We can TOTALLY disagree on this thread but on another one I might be your staunchest advocate.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    You have not proved ONCE my assertion is untrue. We are going in circles.

    *sigh*....it's been proven many time. Sun, Gravity, etc. How do those things NOT prove it?

  • zannahdoll
    zannahdoll

    I ask:

    Evidence, how do you come to know reality? How do you come to know evidence?

    You answer:

    With evidence. (yes, you put a bunch of adjectives in front: repeatable, testable, etc... however you still answer my question of knowing evidence with the answer of evidence.)

    You're argument is begging the question and therefore does not prove anything I say wrong. You use circular logic... This confirms that you still have not proven my assertions wrong once. Again: my assertions are that you know evidence based on the 5 senses and what other people tell you. You know evidence based on your perceptions. You have not proved that you know evidence any other way.

    You ask if we are still friends? I didn't know that we were friends to begin with, but okay. I can be friends with most people. It's been a long time since anyone took me on a Merry-Go-Round. fun.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    I ask:

    Evidence, how do you come to know reality? How do you come to know evidence?

    You answer:

    With evidence. (yes, you put a bunch of adjectives in front: repeatable, testable, etc... however you still answer my question of knowing evidence with the answer of evidence.)

    Aw, look at that, you just created a strawman! You created something that has an element of my answer and propped that up so you can knock it down, even though it's not my actual answers at all! Let's see what happens next!

    You're argument is begging the question and therefore does not prove anything I say wrong. You use circular logic...

    Alright! You followed the script of a strawman! Defeat the strawman you are propping up at my argument that isn't actually my argument! Hey, at least you didn't quote me out of context again! You're improving in your debate fallacies. Good job!

    Confirming that you still have not proven my assertions wrong once: which are that you know evidence based on your senses and what other people tell you.

    Actually, that wasn't your assertion at all. You said "In my experience: Evidence is the favorite buzz word of atheists/anti-theists/agnostics. Unless you test something for yourself you are taking the word of someone else." You were dismissive of anything EXCEPT personally tested evidence. That was a lead up to this: "Atheists/Agnostics/Anti-Theists take a leap of faith every day! Interesting to me that some of you consider taking a leap of faith a fault in theists, claiming that they do not think, when we all do the same and take a leap of faith no matter what you believe or lack belief in. "

    You dismissed evidence unless personally tested and verified to lead up to trying to your assertion to equating faith in god with faith that a tree hasn't fallen across the road since the last time you drove on it. I basically proved that was not in the least bit true, yet you keep trying to suggest I am arguing something different. Like ....

    You know evidence based on your perceptions. You have not proved that you know evidence based on anything other then the 5 senses or trusting what people say to you.

    Sweet! Another strawman! Since I never argued that point, you are just spitting into the wind on that one. No point awarded.

    It's been a long time since anyone took me on a Merry-Go-Round.

    It's been a long time since I had to teach someone so much to show them how little they knew.

  • tec
    tec

    It's been a long time since I had to teach someone so much to show them how little they knew.

    Oh, come on. Its only been a few months since you debated with me.

    *disclaimer - the above was said purely in jest. tec did not lose the subject up for debate, she just learned something about how to debate. *

    Tammy

  • zannahdoll
    zannahdoll

    notverylikely, you provide incomplete quotes again, from my first post:

    In my experience: Evidence is the favorite buzz word of atheists/anti-theists/agnostics. Unless you test something for yourself you are taking the word of someone else. Possibly multiple experts. However we all know that only because many people will atest that something is true doesn't always make it so (example: cults). If you test something for yourself then you are limited to the facts and logic that are available to you (I think we can all agree that we do not have the full picture) and you are limited to your senses (I think we can agree that our senses can play tricks on us).

    Yes, notverylikely, I do go on further to say in my first post that because our senses play tricks on us from time to time we take a leap of faith in trusting them (now here you quote me about how everyone takes a leap of faith: but this is based first on the fact that we know reality through our senses). In trusting our senses we take a leap of faith. In knowing evidence we have faith. From beginning to end of this I have asked (it is in the title of the thread) Evidence, how do you know reality?

    If someone is guilty of strawman then it is you. You are also guilty of ad hominem, you are the first to say "witness bias" and "tainted" I was mirroring what you were saying to you. So: we have, in your arguments: begging the question, strawman, ad hominem - and yet you point out these things on me. Wow.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Oh, come on. Its only been a few months since you debated with me.

    *disclaimer - the above was said purely in jest. tec did not lose the subject up for debate, she just learned something about how to debate.

    Awww....you're such a sweetheart!

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    If someone is guilty of strawman then it is you.

    Please demonstrate where I have setup a strawman. I did not quote you out of context or alter your arguments in any way.

    You are also guilty of ad hominem, you are the first to say "witness bias" and "tainted" I was mirroring what you were saying to you.

    Witness bias is a well known phenomenon. In any event, to be executing an ad hominem attack in our debate I would need to be attacking you, which I did not do in that cases.

    So: we have, in your arguments: begging the question, strawman, ad hominem - and yet you point out these things on me. Wow.

    Nope, sorry, I didn't do any of those. Just like when you thought you had me when I used the word "falsifiability", you might want to actually know what those things are before you accuse me of them.

    Begging the question is stating a premise that requires the conclusion to be true to reach the premise, such as "You can't imagine things that don't exists. Therefore we know god exists because you can imagine him."

    A strawman is when you restate an argument (like you did mine) into a similiar sounding but easily defeated manner and then proceed to defeat the restated but not actual argument (like you did earlier tonight with your "bunch of adjectives" strawman).

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    notverylikely, you provide incomplete quotes again, from my first post:

    Oh, and yes, I did. Incomplete does not equal "out of context". I beleive that the whole senteces I chose to quote adequately represented your assertions and questions. If not, please feel free to re-state them.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    i love this. The problem isnt not having evidence but refusing to see it no matter how many times is shown to you.

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