Witness Denial, or Acceptance of 'Truth'

by ashitaka 12 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ashitaka

  I was talking to an elder's son, giving him the reasons for leaving the 'truth'......the UN thing, molestation stuff, shunning, new light, Nazi discrepencies, etc. He agreed with me on almost all points. We spoke for almost two hours, over a couple of beers. This was no JDC.

  I asked him, since he knew of all the corruption, why he was still a witness.

  His basic answer was that there's really nothing else (no other religion), 'so why not be an active witness?'

  I replied that he could be considered guilty through association for the wrongs, lies, and such that the Witnesses are going along with. He said it really didn't bother him.

  Do you guys think that this is the standard mindset? They know what's going on(the scandals), but really don't care because they hopelessly (hopefully, in their eyes) look forward to the big A as reward for sticking with a corrupt religion. His view was that all the 'bad JW's' will be 'taken care of by Jehovah' (as he put it), so that there's no responsibility to ackowledge the actions of the 'brothers'.

  Or are most witties pleasantly ignorant? Perhaps those that aren't, like that elder's son, see only the good, and just turn a blind eye because facing the facts would hurt them too much. Too much time, money, sacrifice invested for them to pull out when the stock is down.

  ????

  ashi
• 

  Skeptic

  I have been associated with many religious groups over the years, mainly the Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and various evangelical born-again groups.

  What you are seeing is a normal mindset with many religions. If a person is content with their religion, it will take a lot to move them from that contentment. Most will happily ignore problems with their religion. This is not necessarily wrong or unethical.

  Plus, most religions teach their followers not to really think logically about their beliefs. Hence, the teachings on "taking things on faith", "holy mysteries", etc.

  I replied that he could be considered guilty through association for the wrongs, lies, and such that the Witnesses are going along with. He said it really didn't bother him.

  I disagree. Part of my taxes pay for the military. Does that mean I am partially responsible for killing people?

  Your reasoning is similar to the JW reasoning that if you give only a dollar to a union or to buy a military surplus truck, you are contributing to union violence or the killing of people. That thinking is just too extreme.

  And yes, I know that "every snowflake in an avalanche can say its not responsible", but there is a balance somewhere. Its not like your friend was part of a JC that is hiding a child molestor.

  Richard
• 

  Rex B13

  >Or are most witties pleasantly ignorant? Perhaps those that aren't, like that elder's son, see only the good, and just turn a blind eye because facing the facts would hurt them too much. Too much time, money, sacrifice invested for them to pull out when the stock is down.

  What's sad is that there is no 'pleasantly ignorant' with the immortal soul in mind. There is only salvation or judgement.
  Rex
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  ashitaka

  Hi Skeptic,

  The only prob with your analogy is that taxes are compulsory. Being a JW is not.

  People make a conscious choice to participate in a religion they know to have serious flaws. If your nation is flawed, you have no choice but to comply or be imprisoned (or worse).

  But, like I said, it was just a friendly conversation over a couple of beers. I wasn't jumping on him. I love to debate, it's just my style.

  But this...

  "Plus, most religions teach their followers not to really think logically about their beliefs. Hence, the teachings on "taking things on faith", "holy mysteries", etc."

  .....I agree with entirely. That is the midset. That's basically what he was saying.

  Thanks for the comments.

  ashi
• 

  Frenchy

  Ashi:
  A point to ponder. When a witness hears of corruption within the organization they see it as the work of one or two individuals...even if it's one or two individuals in the governing body. They are unable to view the faith as being wrong because they believe it is the very voice of God. It is possible for a witness to find out that ALL the members of the governing body are guilty of a gross sin and still only blame individuals while defending the whole.
• 

  Skeptic

  ashitaka,
  

  The only prob with your analogy is that taxes are compulsory. Being a JW is not.

  I admit my analogy is not completely solid. However, you said that you were talking to an elder's son; I assume that your friend is a baptised Witness.

  So, your friend remaining a Witness is compulsory to an extent. While he will not be jailed for leaving, he will be mostly likely be shunned by his friends and family. So it is not like he can decide these things are wrong and drop out. Even fading away does not always work.

  Just as at a certain point each citizen of a country is responsible for what their military is doing (all the citizens could rebel and overthrow the govt.), at a certain point each JW is responsible for what the organization does (they could all leave at once and the organization would go out of business).

  But we both know that all the citizens of a country are not going to rebel and individuals that do will just be punished. We both know that all JWs are not going to leave, and individuals that do will just be punished. Just as it would be wrong to say an R&F citizen shares responsibility for what his country does, so it is wrong to say an R&F JW is responsible for the wrongs of the organization.

  And, yes, like you, I have taken no offense and just like a good debate.

  Richard
• 

  Focus

  ashitaka wrote:

  I asked him, since he knew of all the corruption, why he was still a witness.
  His basic answer was that there's really nothing else (no other religion), 'so why not be an active witness?'

  Here, I have an answer for the idiot. Click on:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19844&site=3

  print it out and thrust it down his throat. If he fails to act on it, may he choke on it...

  --
  Focus
  ("Love" WT-style Class)
• 

  ashitaka

  I think Frenchy has something there. Some Witties could find 1/2 of the whole corrupt, and just think that God is cleaning house.

  They probably would defend the whole. Sad.

  Skeptic,

  I agree that he will be shunned, but so am I, even though I have just faded away. It's not like I'm being a hypocrite, but of course he has to make his own choice on things. And yup, he's baptised, but he's such a cool guy I can hardly tell.

  Focus...thanks for the link. Will read.

  ashi
• 

  ARoarer

  Hi Ash, I think the thing to remember is that the difference between the Watchtower form of religion and that of other religions is that your freind puts his faith in an intolerant, creed bashing, and destructive negative, hate message. JW's unlike people in other mainstream religions who want to ignore the imperfections in their church, are willing to accept the Watchtower teaching of elitism and social isolationism from "worldly" people. To tolerate such corruption from a religion that claims that "by thier fruitage you will recognize them" is denial and apathy regarding truth and reality. Your friend is happy not to think which is the way WT endlessly instills in it's members. I think for the most part JW's are perfectly happy to live in thier own world until something terrible happens to them that causes them to withdraw and research on thier own as many of us have. For me, it was the abuse issue that caused me to withdraw from those I trusted. But in the end, it was the standing back and looking at the teachings I once believed, and researching that makes me know this is not the "only true religion". That is how we grow from bad experiences, by learning in the process. For me, although it was a horrible experience, I feel blessed that we had the strengh and courage to get out as an "intact family", even thought the Watchtower demonizes families that are able to do this. If you get a chance look up this site and see the difference from your friend's belief system and that of mainstream religion.

  http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/WT_Evil.html
• 

  ashitaka

  I agree, Aroarer.

  I was just thinking back on conversations I had like this one, and how many times the debater agreed with me, but always used the phrases "put faith in Jehovah", and "don't worry, no matter what, bad people won't make it through Armageddon."

  The Witnesses have an answer for anything. That's why they have such devoted members. They have people putting total faith in the JW's because they want to always have a mommy or daddy to tuck them in spiritually.

  Since I'm not going to the meetings people want to know if I'm happy. If I am, they say I'm just like the people in Noah's day and I should beware. If I'm unhappy, it's because I am away from Jehovah.

  You see? Having an answer for everything is perfect for control. It's that kind of logic that's infuriating, and why their religious ego is so large.

  ashi