by leavingwt 61 Replies latest jw friends
JWoods -- Very interesting, thank you. It's this idea of a 'Big' God, who is not playing a game of Gotcha!, narrowly defining his children, that is most appealing to me.
Indeed that kind of non-vengeful God is more appealing. I just have not gotten past the idea of why the creator-God of Adam and Eve had to legalistically kill them in the first place over eating a piece of fruit.
Leavingwt,
I'm not clear whether you're just asking what Ray Franz believed or whether you're also asking whether we agree with him and why.
So I'll answer both.
Obviously, I can't cover every WT teaching here, so I'll discuss the ones that I believe the Bible indicates are essential for salvation.
Ray Franz's Views
You are correct in saying that Ray Franz came to believe that there are genuine Christians both inside and outside of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Shortly after Crisis of Conscience was published, I wrote to Ray Franz to ask him to clarify his views.
Ray wrote back and said, in part, "To present matters in such a way as to imply that Christ Jesus can be reached, and that one can have a personal relationship with him, only through association with a particular organization -- or any kind of organizational structure -- is to make that organization an intermediary or mediator, a prerequisite for salvation. That is completely contrary to all Scriptural teachings about salvation."
My own view is that it is possible for genuine Christians to be deceived into believing the false doctrines of the WTS, but I don't think it's possible for a person to become a Christian if all he does is accept the false Jesus and false gospel of the Watchtower. I'll explain that in more detail below.
A False Gospel?
Clearly, the WTS is one of those groups that teaches what Ray denounced above, that you have to come to THEM in order to obtain salvation. Some other groups also teach this, but they are a small minority.
Ray didn't go so far as to say that JWs have accepted a false gospel (2 Cor. 4:4) but I do think he would have agreed that those who are trusting in their faithful service to an organization to save them are wrong and that those who teach that the only way to Jesus is through their organization are misled and teaching falsehood.
My own thoughts on this are as follows:
Paul warns us against accepting a counterfeit Jesus and a counterfeit gospel. (2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6). I think the WT Jesus and WT gospel fall into those categories.
1. PAYMENT FOR ALL OUR SINS. One of the WT's counterfeit teachings, I think, is the idea that Jesus died to pay for Adamic sin and that we're left to work out our own salvation as far as our personal sins are concerned (that's not what "work out your own salvation" means).
The WT may not say this is so many words, but that's what every JW I know believes.
JWs are always wondering if they have done enough and they are never sure they are approved by Jehovah. That's because they think their salvation depends in part on their works rather than wholly on their faith in Christ's sacrifice.
It's as if they believe Jesus made the down payment and we have to keep up all the installments.
Think about it. If Adam was condemned because of ONE sin, and all Jesus did was pay for Adamic sin, how many of my own sins can I commit before I'm condemned? Just ONE! And if Jesus' sacrifice doesn't cover that, I'm sunk!
But Colossians 2:13-14 says that Christ has forgiven Christians of ALL our sins.
And Romans 8:1-2 says there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus, that we've been set free from the law of sin and death.
This is Good News! It's THE good news. But it's not the good news of the Watchtower gospel.
2. "IN CHRIST": As far as being "in Christ" (Romans 8:1 referenced above) is concerned, Jesus taught our need for a spiritual rebirth (John 3:3). As Adam's descendants, we ALL need this, not just 144,000 of us.
This is obtained as a free gift through genuine repentance of sin and through prayer individually choosing to believe in and accept Christ's payment for our sins. (I think this is what people mean when they talk about "accepting Christ.") He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life. 1 John 5:12.
In contrast to this, the WTS teaches that no one but the 144,000 can be born again or NEEDS to be born again.
The teaching that we can be approved by Jehovah without receiving the new birth is a false gospel.
The WT is barring the way to those who want to get into heaven! (Matthew 23:13)
A Different Jesus?
In John 8:58, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." He didn't say "I have been," as the Greek interlinear side shows. I believe this is a clear reference to Exodus 3:14, where Moses is told by God Himself "I am." (As you can guess, I'm a trinitarian. I won't turn this thread into a trinity discussion unless you want me to; other threads discuss that. Suffice it to say that God didn't just send Michael the archangel to die for our sins.)
At least at the time he wrote to me (1985), Ray Franz would only say that Jesus is God's Son and the Messiah. He said in his letter to me that he thought wrangling anything beyond that regarding the exact nature of Jesus only created division and intolerance.
Based on that, I think he would have disagreed both with those who insist that Jesus is part of a trinity or those who claim that Jesus is Michael.
I respectfully disagree with him on that point. While I'm against senseless and intolerant wrangling, I personally think Jesus' full deity is shown in the Bible and that John 8:58 says that this is an essential issue in our salvation. But Ray didn't see it that way.
I should add that I can't speak to what Ray believed near the end of his life. I'm just telling you what he conveyed to me in 1985.
Resurrection
Romans 10:9 says that one of the requirements to be saved is to believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead. See also 1 Corinthians 15:7.
In his letter to me, Ray didn't discuss his views of the nature of the resurrection. I'm sure he would have agreed that truly believing in Christ's resurrection is an essential part of being a Christian.
I don't think we need to understand everything about Jesus' resurrection in order to be saved, but I think the WT's teaching on this point is clearly part of their false gospel. How so?
I submit that the WT's "spirit resurrection" is no resurrection at all. The man Jesus died and was buried. According to the Watchtower, what part of him was raised from the dead? Not his body. Not his mind. Not his personality. Just an "impersonal life force." I'm not sure what that is, but I submit it sure isn't the Jesus who died for our sins!
Jesus prophesied his BODILY resurrection (John 2:19-21).
Also, look at John 20:25-28. The Watchtower says it wasn't Jesus' body. Jesus tells Thomas it was. Was Jesus showing FAKE wounds on a manufactured body to Thomas to lead him to faith?
Summary
I believe it's quite possible for a JW to reject the WT's false gospel and to accept the Bible's gospel, but he (or she) can't remain a JW in good standing if he makes public his change of belief.
Thanks to any who patiently read and ponder this.
I respect your right to disagree.
I think the important thing is not what Ray Franz thought or what anyone else (including me) thinks.
The important thing is what YHWH thinks, and for that we each need to study the Bible, sincerely ask YHWH for guidance, and make our own decision on what to do with our one and only life.
Some important points here, welcome Ding :)
My own position on the matter was stated in a similar thread
Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)
Blessings,
Stephen
There is a reason why only God and Jesus wil judge those worthy of salavtion, only THEY know what is truly in our hearts.
Many "christians" will not be there and many "non-christians" will, for Our Lord judges Us according how we judge others and Judges our TRUE heart and not the one we show others.
God knows why we do what we do, why we believe what we believe, why we profess what we profess, GOD KNOWS.
Ding:
Thank you for your extended comments. To answer your first question, I was asking the folks here, what they believe. As we've both agreed, Ray made his opinion known in his books. I was not implying that his opinion is more important/correct than anyone else's, I was just throwing it out there as an example of one line of thought on this topic.
I believe it's quite possible for a JW to reject the WT's false gospel and to accept the Bible's gospel, but he (or she) can't remain a JW in good standing if he makes public his change of belief.
You're referring to a "good standing" from the viewpoint of WT leadership. Yes, and this places the Christian JW in a difficult spot. Because of the institutionalized, mandatory shunning, this can create a real hardship for a JW Christian who doesn't want to keep his lamp under a basket.
Stephen:
Thank you for the link. Your interpretation of those passages places JW (and other high-control groups) in a difficult spot in relation to Christ.
PSacramento:
Thank you.
Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?
Of course, a true JW will tell you only 144, 000 are bound for heaven. The average JW does not believe they are going to heaven.
24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Blessings,
Stephen
A JW who discovers the real Jesus and the real gospel and speaks up will be disfellowshipped.
John 9:34-41:
Jesus opens the eyes of a man born blind.
He testifies to what Jesus did for him.
The Pharisees throw him out.
He worships Jesus.
Jesus condemns the Pharisees who see but won't believe.
I'm kind of soured on the whole religion thing after my experiences, but if there's anything to it, this is how I feel. Jesus is way bigger than just Jesus the man, whom the apostles knew, and whose story we know from the Gospels. Jesus valued love and forgiveness and mercy. Who really has accepted Jesus? Someone who accepts a name and a story, or one accepts into his heart all the things that Jesus stands for? I believe that being hung up on Jesus the man is idolatry, and bowing down to the image of Jesus that we've graven in our own minds. I also believe that someone can accept the real Jesus without ever knowing Jesus the man. And that's all I've got to say about that.
I think there's room in the Body of Christ for Dubs, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, and hell, maybe even Joel Osteen. It's a big body!
However, some will be the hands, some will be the feet, some will be the pancreas...
....aaaaaand somebody's gotta be the sphincter.
But seriously, if there is a Heaven, I'm sure Christ knows his real buddies regardless of denomination.
@ Elgiard.
