by nicolaou 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
No, not really.
I agree with snowbird. It really gets nowhere. Although, I do appreciate understanding where another persons viewpoint stems from, debating it, is pointless.
I agree. I like to try to understand other's thoughts or reasons, even if I disagree with it.
I am not a fan of In-Your-Face and emotionally charged confrontation, I feel it is unproductive.
AGuest said:
It is what I have been sent to do... and how I can work out my own salvation and perhaps that of my entire household. So, here I is.
Peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
So once again this begs the question, is it a free gift the Christ offers or something you work for? Anything you work for is a wage or earnings.
If I agree to pay someone $50 to mow my lawn, then after they get done working on it I bring them their $50 and say here is your money,consider it a gift, how you suppose they will take that?
The work "out my salvation" thing sure sounds a lot like what the JW's think they're doing.
A gift is something you give to others with no strings attached. As soon as you attach any preconditions to receiving something it is no longer a gift but moves into a earnings/works category.
Anyways I don't want to hi-jack this thread but just saw that an wanted to make an observation.
But back on track of the Topic at hand I usually always enjoy the dicussions on faith(belief) and reason.
Love to hear others viewpoints (both sides) and almost always see something said/discussed that prompts me to go look something up.
And even tho we may have heard these discussions many times, there is a lot of news ones joining that haven't, so it may make them feel like it did us on our first times to acknowledge that there is some merit on both sides.
Anyways peace, love, rock N roll to all of you.
A fellow human being on this mudball planet we call Earth,
StoneWall
I'm with StoneWall. Logic, FTW!
I'm eager to hear any new perspective from any side of the debate, so long as it's logical. I just downloaded the Hitchens (Atheist) vs Craig (Creationist) debate video filmed at Biola U. Plan on watching with an open mind, though I've been sitting in Agnostic-Atheist territory for a while now.
Here you go Stonewall. My point exactly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0wSjJAsrAk&feature=player_embedded
Debates are tiresome. If I find myself stuck in one—which I already have and had to pull myself away—I take a bucket of ice and pour it over my head. I don’t describe to debate at all. Why?
When I was in high school I joined something called the National Forensic League. It made young people into very talented speakers through various exercises and competitions held throughout the country. One of these means was by teaching us how to debate, most notably the type that people tend to engage in today based on the L-D style or form, otherwise known as the Lincoln-Douglas debate.
I have noted that some often call their debates on religious matters an exercise in “apologetics.” There are even so-called “experts” in this field who do the same thing. But this is a mistake. In the apology, the goal is to defend one’s stand by demonstrating how it is not against reason that you came to adopt your position. The aim is not to prove one’s convictions as true by calling up evidence or proof texts, nor is the intention to convert or catechize others. The apology merely attempts to prove that one’s own reasons for adopting one’s beliefs—despite what these may entail—are in themselves conclusions arrived at logically.
Debates are basically arguments, but not necessarily fights—though they can end up being such or at least shouting matches charged with lots of emotion. While a person might attempt to prove that their logic for adopting a certain conviction is sound, one is more often attempting to win the argument at hand. Parties attempt to prove their points while dismantling those in opposition. It is often used as a tool to proselytize or to disprove. There can be a panel of judges, and there can be a winner to a debate, usually chosen by the panel. Also the winner is not always the one who has proven their case by meeting some standard of agreed methodology nor is this a requisite of debate. Often the one who proves to have the most talent for expressing their argument more elegantly than the other is chosen at the triumphant one.
Debates on the Internet usually get dirty and are filled with name calling and display lots of hatred. They don’t settle anything, otherwise one would not keep debating over the same things over and over. But don’t misconstrue what I am saying as if I cite no value to debate. Much can be learned by means of them. You just can’t prove any of it because the other side can always claim you didn’t satisfy them with your answers.
I prefer apologetics because at least another can see that you did not come to your conclusions lightly and that it was a logical step to take despite the fact that some facets of one’s convictions might be difficult to prove in themselves. Also I am not of the opinion that I can or should be the one to govern another’s conscience and say that they belief system is wrong. In the apology I am meant only to defend my reasons for the stand I have taken and prove this alone.
No. Just last night I was telling my husband about this site and the endless debates re: God's existence. I questioned why people are so concerned.
If God exists or if he doesn't exist, it will not change one thing I do today...tomorrow...or the next. I will be the same good person, who seeks to be honest, charitable, and kind.
If He exists and rewards that, great! If not, then behaving that way still makes me happier and healthier, so I still win.
I wouln't say I enjoy them and for the most part steer clear of them. I think once someone has settled with their particular belief, it's no longer necessary to "prove" it to anyone.
But I do like a reasonable discussion for it's own sake and like to see good points made on both sides, if only academic. Neither side can prove their assertion without reasonable doubt.
My belief is that it really doesn't matter what you believe as long as it's the right fit for you. Many paths to the mountain and back.
I don't know how anyone can see the evolution (pardon the pun) of die hard believers into free thinking logical individuals that happens here all the time and feel that those threads accomplish nothing and nobody ever changes their mind.
People change their minds here OFTEN. WAY more than I've ever seen or experienced in 4 decades of Borgdom.
I enjoy reading intelligent discourse between individuals embroiled in a profound subject such as the existence / non-existence of a supernatural being. It helps hearing both sides (if they are being rational and logical) which in turn either confirms or makes me think twice about a notion I currently hold. Healthy debate is a hallmark of rational beings. When the mudslinging or logical fallacies rear their collective ugly head, then it's not enjoyable. I actually start to feel embarrassed for the guilty party who is undermining the arguments, either purposefully or ignorantly. In my reading history of forums, I always find a few individuals who consistently use sound reasoning (both sides) and like reading their back-and-forth dialog. Helps me sharpen my debating skills and keeps me intellectually honest as possible.
My guilty pleasure however is YouTube and watching videos where people have absolutely no substantive arguments and are out of their league in debating others. Some real hilarious ones out there.
That being said, when did everyone here stop beating their dog?
Cheers...
I enjoy them, I see where I have to adjust and correct my thought processes.
