Christians: Do you believe Jesus is the only way? (page 20)

@sabastious:

Check out this scripture: John 14: 6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.... Do you believe this message?

Yes.

If so, do you understand the condemnation this belief puts on 3 quarters of the world?

No, but that's me. I think it heartening that you would seem to be the kind of person that would sympathize with parts of the world that you don't believe are being reached by the good news of the second presence of the Kingdom of God, folks that you may be of the belief are being overlooked by the Christian message, folks that may be living in some three quarters of the world that you believe are going to perish not due to their unbelief, but because of their never having heard the message, which therefore make these folks totally ignorant about this message.

@leavingwt:

What exactly happens to those who don't find Jesus?

What do you mean, "find Jesus"? No one at all is being saved by finding Jesus or by coming to Jesus, only those that have heard from the Father -- that is, from Jesus' Father -- meaning that they have both read God's word and learned from having read it that they must come to God through Jesus, since it is to Jesus that God has committed all judging. (John 6:45; 5:22) IOW, apart from belief in Jehovah, no one will be saved. It is due to God's undeserved kindness while we were yet sinners that we have the provision of the ransom, which God provides as a free gift by means of the undeserved kindness of Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:8, 15)

Second Thessalonians 1:8, 9, indicates that "those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus ... will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction." It is a sobering fact that not everyone on the planet will be saved and yet those fortunate enough to have heard the good news are rejecting the opportunity to receive God's gift by their refusal to warn as many folks as time permits of their need to repent that they might also receive the free gift of eternal life in connection with faith in Jesus Christ.

@LV101:

Assuming one does believe this scripture (I do believe this scripture) --- what does it really mean, "except through me."

This part of Jesus' statement is somewhat similar to everyone of your classmates on March 1 going on a class trip to the museum, except for you, because you were at home in your bed sick on March 1 due to the flu bug you had recently contracted. It's like no reporter gets to have a one-on-one interview with the president, except through the president's organ, his press secretary. What kind of a question is this anyway?

Are we to view Jesus as our LORD and not pray to God (but to Jesus) or just have the privilege NOW because of Jesus' or on the merits of him --- I'm so confused.

Where in the Bible do you recall reading that one's prayers should be directed to Jesus? Don't look for it, for there is no Bible citation to this effect that you or anyone else could provide me here, but if you, like Christendom, should choose to pray to Jesus as your personal Lord and your personal savior, and you, like Christendom, should choose to just ignore Jehovah God as if He doesn't exist because it is your view that praying to Jesus is sufficient, then you can join Christendom in fulfilling Jesus' prophecy in which he says that "many will come on the basis of [his] name, saying, 'I am the Christ,'" as you and they mislead many people into believing that they can be saved by just praying to Jesus, something that Jesus never taught anyone to do.

At Luke 11:1, 2, one of Jesus' disciples approached Jesus after Jesus had just finish praying to God, asking him to "teach us how to pray," to which Jesus responded not, "Whenever you pray, say, Jesus, let your name be sanctified." No, but what Jesus actually said on this occasion, which was just before the Festival of Dedication or Hanukkah of 32 AD, was something similar to what he had said some 18 months previously in 31 AD near passover during his Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6:9-13), was that he should pray, "Father, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come."

It is Jehovah's name that has been reproached since the beginning when Satan slandered it, calling into question Jehovah's universal sovereignty, Jehovah's right to rule over His intelligent creation. Christendom reproaches God's name, too, by its erroneous teachings in glorifying Jesus as a God-man hybrid, as it does not submit to Jehovah's authority at all nor does it have any interest whatsoever in sanctifying God's name. And how is God's name to be sanctified? That would be by means of the Messianic kingdom, by means of His heavenly government, in that God has placed His son, Jesus, on the throne as His duly appointed king, which kingdom represents God's divine sovereignty over the earth. But Christendom doesn't preach about God's kingdom either.

Have read on here that the mainstream churches worship JESUS, (or do they consider Jesus as God in the flesh which I don't understand at this point) and I still believe that Jesus and God are TWO SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS. Religions have certainly caused much confusion.

What possible difference would it make to you what the mainstream churches do with regard to worshipping Jesus as God? Does it disturb you that adherents of Islam worship Allah as God? How does what any false religion affect you or confuse you?

@sebastious wrote:

If so, do you understand the condemnation this belief puts on 3 quarters of the world?

@snowbird wrote:

No condemnation, Bro. Christians have access to the Father now; the others, later. So simple, isn't it?

Yes, I think your idea is a simple one, especially since it isn't scriptural idea. Did the folks that lived during the presence of Noah when he was preaching the end of that ancient world was imminent come to have access to the Father "later"? It is by the things Noah was preaching to a condemned world when the time arrived for the end of that world and God shut the door that those outside of the ark "later" gained access to the Father? What in the world is wrong with you? Do you just pick and choose what portions of the Bible you are going to accept while rejecting those portions of it that you have decided you will not accept or what?

@sabastious:

So if you want to "goto the Father" (which [means to]: have God in your life and benefit from his power), you gotta "go through the son" (which means accept Jesus into your life in some [fashion]).

God is already in the lives of every living thing, whether intelligent life or life in the animal kingdom, for rainfall, sun, lightning, bacteria are processes by means of which the food we eat is produced, the natural laws that govern the forces of gravity, magnetism that keeps us from floating off somewhere and provides electricity, radio waves, the transmission of sound over telephone wires, respectively, and every living thing is a beneficiary of God (including atheists!), but "except through [Jesus]" does not mean that one must accept Jesus into their life "in some "[fashion]." Maybe "go through the son" means accepting Jesus into one's life in some [fashion]; I wouldn't know.

Which means.... The Path to God is only [accessible] to humans who have accepted Jesus into their [lives] in some [fashion].

Where are you getting this "path to God is only accessible" stuff? How does "except through [Jesus]" come to mean "the path to God"?

Which means... That every religious culture that doesn't [observe] Jesus is condemned from the Path to God.

Please explain what you mean by this "Path to God" since "except through me" or "except through [Jesus]" doesn't mean "Path to God."

@BurnTheShips:

Exactly what Snowbird said. Jesus is the Way, but not all of us find it here in this life.

If one doesn't accept Jesus in this life as being the way to eternal life -- which is what John 14:6 is talking about -- then when? The only survivors of the revelation of Jesus Christ will be those that have walked in that way, and as for the rest, this life will be the end of the lives of many that "will be called "least" in relation to the kingdom of the heavens." Those that do not find "the Way" have already been judged just as those of us that did walk on the way of holiness and did find "the Way," that is, "the way of God," "the way of the truth," have passed from death to life, or don't you understand that? (Matthew 5:19; John 3:18; 5:24; Isaiah 35:8, 9; Acts 9:2; 19:23; Acts 18:26; 2 Peter 2:2) "The way of the truth" refers to a course of conduct.

Are you suggesting here that there is another "way of the truth" that some of those not finding "the way of God" in this life will find in some other life? What's the scriptural reference that supports such a notion?

This does not mean that we are automatically condemned.

What doesn't mean that "we" are automatically condemned? If one is not putting faith in Jesus Christ, one has already been judged, or to put it another way, this means that those that should not be living according to the spirit, but are living in accord with the flesh, they "are sure to die." (Romans 8:13)

@sabastious wrote:

^ Where are you getting this? Let me quote the scripture again:

John 14: 6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This scripture is concise. Please give me an equally descriptive scripture(s) that supports your concept of "others coming to the Father, later on."

@snowbird wrote:

Christians have access to the Father now; the others, later.

@sabastious wrote:

Who are the 'others', and what do you mean by 'later'?

@snowbird wrote:

"Later" means when the Father arrives, after the Son has prepared the way for Him.

"When the Father arrives"? Jehovah does go anywhere; His abode is in heaven where He thrones. He has angelic messengers that do His bidding, and the Son doesn't prepare any "way" for Jehovah. You're out there, @snowbird. You sound like someone that has definitely lost her way.

There is NO condemnation for anyone now! That, too, will come later.

Is that right? Condemnation will "come later," you say? Later than what exactly? Later than Armageddon?

@believingxjw:

Who is Jesus speaking to there in John 14, is it not his disciples? He taught them earlier that they were to call no one their Teacher because he was their Teacher. He taught them they were to call no one their Leader because he was their Leader. In my opinion, John 14:6 is a reminder to all Christians that the only way to the Father is through Jesus himself alone. For Christians the way to the Father is through the Son.

Well, the question remains, what did Jesus mean when he said at John 14:6, "No one comes to the Father, except through me"? What did Jesus mean by "through me"?

@snowbird wrote:

There is NO condemnation for anyone now! That, too, will come later.

@sabastious wrote:

This is like rolling a large [boulder] off a steep hill that overlooks an unsuspecting village and saying that the village is not going to (or might not) suffer damage because the [boulder] hasn't reached it yet. No one can predict how much damage the village will take, but the second it started rolling we know that the village will be hit.

No, it isn't. @snowbird's statement is just plain stupid. What's so wrong and sad is that @snowbird is so far out there that she isn't even aware of how wrong she is to think that those "cursed" ones that have been separated to the king's left hand will receive condemnation after Armageddon, that is, at some later time. (Matthew 25:41) When Adam was sentenced by Jehovah to death, he became a condemned man, a man condemned to death, so that when he reached 930 years of age, he died, and Adam will not be among "the resurrection of the righteous ones" because there is no "later" for those condemned to death by God. (Luke 14:14) As another example, for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah that were condemned to death by God, there will be no "later"; their judgment was final.

Just as in the days of Noah, so it is now during the second presence of Jesus that the good news about the established kingdom of God is being preached through the inhabited earth and the majority are taking no note of this good news of the kingdom. As Jesus foretold at Matthew 24:37-39, just as it was in the days of Noah's presence during the manifestation of God's favor toward mankind, when Jehovah, through Noah, had been giving divine warning of the end of that ancient world "until the day that Noah entered the ark" and the end came, likewise in the days of Jesus' presence during the manifestation of God's favor toward mankind, Jehovah, through Jehovah's Witnesses, is giving divine warning of the end of this world, but when Jehovah 'shuts the door,' the sign of the Son of man" will be revealed in heaven, and the end of this system of things will come. (Genesis 7:16; Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

@snowbird:

Revelation 21:21-27 The main street of the City was pure gold, translucent as glass. But there was no sign of a Temple, for the Lord God—the Sovereign-Strong—and the Lamb are the Temple. The City doesn't need sun or moon for light. God's Glory is its light, the Lamb its lamp! The nations will walk in its light and earth's kings bring in their splendor. Its gates will never be shut by day, and there won't be any night. They'll bring the glory and honor of the nations into the City. Nothing dirty or defiled will get into the City, and no one who defiles or deceives. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will get in. MSG

This passage from Revelation 21:21-27 is about the city of New Jerusalem, which is composed of Jesus Christ, its king and high priest, and its 144,000 associate kings and priests, who bring their splendor into it and provide spiritual enlightenment to the nations that will walk in the earthly realm of God's spiritual temple after Armageddon, for this passage speaks of the people of many nations whose names have been "written in the Lamb's scroll."

@brotherdan:

I've gotta agree with snowbird as far as scripture goes. A more correct understanding of Revelation (one different than the WT's silly interpretation) shows that AFTER Jesus comes [VISIBLY] there will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to him. Hence "Great Crowd".

No, "the great crowd" to which the apostle John refers, for example, at Revelation 7:14, are those "that come out of the great tribulation," those who "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" through Christian dedication. Forget about the "silly interpretation" of Jehovah's Witnesses and just read the Bible, and the point is clear that what @snowbird has suggested as to there being no condemnation for those not coming to the Father through Jesus and citing Revelation 21:21-27 as support is just nonsense, for she says that "Christians have access to the Father now," while non-Christians, "the others," as she calls them, will be given access "later," when there will be no "later" after the revelation of Jesus Christ for these "others." (They will all be dead!)

@brotherdan wrote:

there will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to him. Hence "Great Crowd".

@leavingwt wrote:

Why the narrow road, etc?

@snowbird wrote:

WT's view is narrow, twisted, and sick.

@snowbird indicates here that she is in agreement with brotherdan's sentiments, and she wants him to know that she agrees -- not with anything the Bible has to say on this point -- but with him, that is, @snowbird agrees with @brotherdan.

@snowbird wrote:

ALL families of the earth are to bless themselves, not be condemned, by means of Abraham's Seed. Hallelujah!

Only the families of the earth that will have escaped condemnation of the world following the revelation of Jesus Christ at Armageddon will be those blessing themselves by means of Abraham's seed, that is, by means of God's Messianic Kingdom, so why on earth would "the great crowd" of Armageddon survivors be spoken of as being condemned when Revelation 7:14 clearly indicates are the ones that are saved, "the ones that come out of the great tribulation"?

"Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you people," Jehovah of armies has said, for "the vision of their own heart is what they speak--not from the mouth of Jehovah." They are speaking their own words when they say, "There is NO condemnation for anyone now! That, too, will come later," and "There will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to him," for together they are prophesying that "'No calamity will come upon you people,'" when Jehovah has said no such thing! (Jeremiah 23:16, 17) "I did not send the prophets," says Jehovah, "yet they themselves ran. I did not speak to them, yet they themselves prophesied." (Jeremiah 23:21)

Consequently, Jehovah says, "I am against the prophets, ... the ones who are stealing away my words, each one from his companion, ... the ones who are employing their tongue that they may utter forth, 'An utterance!'" I am against the prophets of false dreams ... who relate them and cause my people to wander about because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting.... I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people." (Jeremiah 23:30-32) They "have changed the words of the living God, Jehovah of armies, our God." (Jeremiah 23:36)

I know that neither @snowbird or @brotherdan really cares very much about what Jehovah has to say on important topics like these, preferring instead to put forward their own visions, their own dreams, their own reading of the Scriptures as if they were sent by Jehovah as His prophets, and they can prophesy whatever they wish in Jehovah's name, if that is what they choose to do, for this is what false prophets do!

However, as Jehovah's Witnesses are true prophets of God, and I am a true prophet of God, I am only able to prophesy what things Jehovah has declared in His word, the Bible, which word, at 1 Timothy 6:16, indicates that Jesus now "dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see," meaning that Jesus won't be coming "[visibly]," and that "the sign of the Son of man" attendant to "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels" will be visibly seen by everyone on earth "just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts." (Matthew 24:27, 30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

Righteousness has been imputed to the "great crowd" due to having washed their robes and in their making them white "in the blood of the Lamb," Jesus Christ, so that they are even now declared "righteous" by God. (Revelation 7:14; Matthew 25:37)

It is before Jesus' revelation during the manifestation of Jesus' second presence that the opportunity to come to Jehovah through Jesus Christ is presented to everyone through the good news of the established kingdom of God being preached throughout the earth by Jehovah's Witnesses.

@sabastious:

Revelation: 21:27 - Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Syl, Revelation is not even close to descriptive as John 14:6 so you didn't answer the question.

It isn't even possible for @snowbird to answer your question any better than she did.

Second, I noticed vs 27 of the scripture you quoted. Interesting that you can be deemed impure to enter the Temple, yet they leave the definition of impurity ambiguous.

I didn't follow that: Who is it exactly do you believe left the definition of "impurity" ambiguous? Instead of "Nothing impure" (MSG), the NWT translates this portion of Revelation 21:27, "But anything not sacred," which should make the point that no one to whom holiness, righteousness, has not been imputed will be permitted to set foot, not a single toe, within the courtyards of God's spiritual temple. One would need to be dedicated servant of God wearing a white robe, as it were, in order to enter God's Great Spiritual Temple. (Revelation 7:9, 10)

@brotherdan:

I think that the illustration of the narrow road and the broad road [does] not [necessarily] speak about the number, but the difficulty involved. It's EASY for many to find the broad road. And it's hard to find the narrow road. But the fact should remain that you can always switch which road you are on.

No one need find the road on which one is already traveling. Until one finds the "narrow" road that leads to life, one is on the "broad" road that leads to destruction. You talk about it being easy "to find the broad road," but no one needs to "find" their home if one is already home, do they? The offspring of Adam were born on the broad road, and this would include little infants of believing parents who are considered "holy" on account of their believing parents, but who would otherwise be on the broad road along with their unbelieving parents. (1 Corinthians 7:14)

Also, as to this idea of yours about switching roads, there's no switching of roads either, for either one is on the narrow road that leads to life or one is on the broad road that leads to destruction. Those folks having a lack of faith may appear to Christians to be walking on that narrow road to which Jesus refers at Matthew 7:13, 14, but they in reality are those that Jesus says are on that broad road. Your comment suggest that these "broad roaders" cannot fool Jesus, which is ludicrous.

@believingxjw:

Jesus is speaking to his disciples. He was not speaking to those outside of that particular group. If a foreman tells his crew "no one is going to get their paycheck without coming to me first", does that mean he's speaking to everyone in town? At the time Jesus was speaking he was speaking to his disciples.

I understood your analogy, @believingxjw, but it doesn't aptly describe what Jesus meant when he told his disciples at John 14:6, "No one comes to the Father except through me." While Jesus points out to his disciples that he was "the way [of reconciliation to God] and the truth [in that all of the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled in him] and the life [for through his lifeblood that mankind obtains deliverance from sin and death]" then, and Jesus is still all of these things now, Jesus is, in context, telling his disciples that none of them can enter into life in the kingdom and come into God's presence, except by their exercising faith in him. Faith in what exactly? Faith in the ransom. And, by extension, Jesus is also telling them there that access to the Father is only possible when one prays to Jehovah in Jesus' name.

The reason your analogy isn't very good is that Jesus' words at John 14:6 were applicable to more than just those who were his disciples at that time, but actually did apply equally to everyone in town since everyone that had heard the good news that was being preached after Pentecost about the resurrection of Jesus Christ during Jesus' first presence after Pentecost -- and this would obviously be beyond just Jesus' 11 faithful apostles -- learned that God had resurrected Jesus from the dead, so those exercising faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice and thus became Jesus' disciples got "a paycheck," or life, because, due to their faith in Jesus, they had the prospect of spending eternity with the Father in heaven even if they had to wait awhile until the Gentile Times had come to an end and Jesus could then resurrect his followers to life in the heavens.

Put another way, no one gets to receive a "paycheck" unless Jesus signs off on an individual's timecard. He knows who it is that is exercising faith in him and who isn't really doing so. Going to heaven where they would see the Father is the same as "getting their paycheck," but those that have learned from Jehovah have also come to know that their salvation is only possible through faith in Jesus' ransom. Also, because righteousness has been imputed to the "great crowd," who have washed their robes and making them white "in the blood of the Lamb," they are even now declared "righteous" by God and they get a "paycheck," too, as they are permitted to enter the courtyards of God's spiritual temple. (Revelation 7:14; Matthew 25:37) That they are making their robes white "in the blood of the Lamb" means that they are exercising faith in Jesus' ransom.

At John 6:45, we read Jesus' own words: "Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me." It's not that one must come to Jesus first.

Btw, the word "Christian" did not exist in Jesus' day.

So what? Did the fact that Jesus' followers weren't known as "Christians" until 44 AD, some 11 years after Pentecost, make Jesus' followers any less disciples of Jesus (which is what it means to be a Christian)? I don't get your point in saying this.

@brotherdan wrote:

A more correct understanding of Revelation (one different than the WT's silly interpretation) shows that AFTER Jesus comes [VISIBLY] there will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to him. Hence "Great Crowd".

@sabastious wrote:

This seems convoluted to me.

As I mentioned earlier, @brotherdan's statement "AFTER Jesus comes [VISIBLY] there will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to him," makes no sense at all.

So there are many who don't have the opportunity to come to God right now? That's an odd concept.

There [have] been a lot of reprehensible things that have happened since Jesus allegedly died for our sins, now 2000 years later we're still waiting for him you avail the Temple to all mankind? Christianity seems moot in this framework.

You're absolutely correct in what you say here. @brotherdan's statements that "there will be an opportunity for EVERYONE to come to [Jesus]," and that these are called the "Great Crowd" simply cannot be reconciled with the Bible. I wanted to also mention that your statement to the effect that Jesus "allegedly died for our sins" is a statement that also cannot be reconciled with the Bible, @sabastious. There is no "allegedly" where the ransom is concerned, for the Christian hope is entirely based upon the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ through which we must become reconciled to God. It is with reference to the ransom that Jesus' words "except through me" at John 14:6 point.

Only those persons that have chosen to disregard the truth about the established heavenly kingdom of God during Jesus' presence and who are deliberately ignoring the sign of Christ's presence because they do not wish to believe that Jesus has returned and that we are living during Jesus' second presence are the ones that are taking no note of it. (Matthew 24:39)

At Luke 11:29, Jesus said about those religionists back in the first century: "This generation is a wicked generation; it looks for a sign. But no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah." Right here on this forum, what we have today are essentially religionists that are looking for a sign, too, but no sign will be given it but "the sign of the Son of man" at 'the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven with his angels.' (Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

@sabastious wrote to @brotherdan:

The narrow road is a Licence. It allows any group to call their path That Road, and every religion I have ever heard of speaks in such a manner.

I think your "Us v. Them" description of all of Babylon the Great's religions is an accurate one.

@brotherdan:

I'm talking strictly Bible, Sab. Not that I necessarily believe it or anything. But it DOES say that there would be a great crowd coming out of the tribulation.

Actually, you're not "talking strictly Bible," @brotherdan. While the Bible does say (at Revelation 7:14) is that this "great crowd" comes out of the great tribulation, the "great crowd" consists of dedicated, baptized Christians.

As far as the Bible is concerned I see evidence of it speaking (though very hazy) about a rapture of the Christians when he comes.

Where exactly did you find "a rapture" being discussed in Scripture? I trust that you do not read Luke 17:34, 35, as does Christendom, that twists this passage to mean something that it really doesn't mean, for all Jesus is saying in it is that one man will be saved ("taken along") while the other one will perish ("be abandoned"), and one woman would be saved ("taken along") while the other one will perish ("be abandoned"). Or maybe you do.

Then there would be an anti christ and people that stand up against him (great crowd) and also a group of physical jews (144,000) in Israel that stand against him.

This makes no sense since the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) which number 144,000 are spiritual Jews, not physical Jews, or fleshly Jews. If you were once one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but you no longer associate with them, then you are the "antichrist, that is, "one that denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

Like I said, it's all in Revelation. But the correct interpretation of it all...I'm not so sure. If there even is one...

I've no idea what you're talking about here in your asserting here that "it's all in Revelation."

If this interpretation is correct, would there be those that don't have the opportunity to come to God today? The answer would be yes...to a point.

What point would that be? I don't know that the answer to this question you raise here would be a "yes," for I believe that everyone that wants to come and have a drink of this crystal-clear water from God will be given opportunity to drink of God's provision for restoring everlasting life to people right here on earth, for this living water bubbles up "to impart everlasting life." (Revelation 22:1; John 4:14) This is why the spirit and the bride keep on saying "Come!" to anyone hearing and thirsting "that wishes take life's water free." (Revelation 22:17)

I think honest hearted people that are not Christians but honestly believe in "God" can have a relationship of sorts with him. But they won't really know about Jesus and the truth about him until he comes. (Again...just according to what I've read in Revelation. If it's true or not...well...the debate is still out in my head.)

But you didn't read any such thing in the Bible book of Revelation, @brotherdan. What you say here originates with your own imagination, for while there are folks that "honestly believe" in some "God," they that do not know Jehovah are not putting faith in the true God, and it will be too late for such "honest hearted people that are not Christians" to learn "about Jesus and the truth about him" after Jesus' revelation.

The fact that this great crowd that the apostle John saw in his vision had come "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" (Revelation 7:9) suggests that the good news about the established kingdom of God will reach those that do not now "have a relationship" of any sort with the true God before Jesus finally comes as God's executioner against this wicked system of things at Armageddon.

@sabastious:

False analogy.

I agree.

Jesus knew [what] he was speaking there was to be read by the whole world for [millennia] to come.

Correct.

@snowbird:

There is no need for a broad way now ("few are the ones finding it"). That, too, will come later.

Nowhere in the passage at Matthew 7:13, 14, does Jesus say that "few" are the ones finding the broad way. Mankind was born on the broad way, which is why one needs to find the "narrow" road. You yourself didn't find it difficult to find the "broad" road, did you? Not only are you a false prophet (prophetess), but you are shameless with it!

See Revelation 22.

What exactly do you see at Revelation 22 that no one else sees, @snowbird?

@snowbird wrote:

There is NO condemnation for anyone now! That, too, will come later.

@sabastious wrote:

@snowbird wrote:

False analogy! God always gives a warning before He acts.

You're right about this idea being a "false analogy," because during this manifestation of Jesus' presence there will be no "unsuspecting village" that will not have received a warning through their having heard the good news of the kingdom that will have been preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness, which, in fact, constitutes a warning from God about the coming revelation of Jesus Christ.

If people are condemned, it will be their choice. (Revelation 21 and 22, again)

More accurately if people are condemned, it will be because they took no note of the warning. (Matthew 24:39)

@brotherdan:

Right. I'm not disagreeing with you Sab. Just stating what I've read and see. It's a bit confusing because Rev 1:3 says happy is he that reads and understands the prophecy. But there are so many different interpretations of it...how can you REALLY know that you have the right understanding.

What difference does it make that there may be "so many different interpretations" of the book of Revelation when you should know that there can only be one correct interpretation? It is true that Revelation 1:3 does make "happy" those that read aloud, hear and observe "the words of this prophecy" recorded by the apostle John. However, this verse does not pronounce as "happy" those that 'read and understand the prophecy' as you are saying here, since there are many disfellowshipped Jehovah's Witnesses that have read and actually do understand what "the words of this prophecy" mean, but are pursuing an agenda that is completely opposite to what Jehovah's Witnesses are "happily" doing in harmony with "this prophecy."

If what you have read in the book of Revelation should be confusing to you, then that would be your fault since you evidently cannot discern when you have heard the truth, and what things Jehovah's Witnesses teach is the truth.

I'll give you a "for example".

Ok.

For example, Revelation 6:2 talks about one of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. It says that he rides a white horse, he holds a bow, is given a crown, and goes forth as a conqueror. The Watchtower says that this is Jesus.

If there is any particular Watchtower that says that the white horse is Jesus, then to which one do you refer? The Watchtower is just a magazine containing Bible-based articles written by Jehovah's Witnesses, so what I believe you are really saying here is that Jehovah's Witnesses (like me!) say that the rider on the "white horse," that holds a bow, is given a crown and who went forth1 conquering and will "complete his conquest" represents the Lord Jesus Christ, and you would be correct for this is exactly what we say and teach others. But your questions here are somewhat intriguing.

But where is Jesus ever have been spoken of as having a bow? And why [are] there no arrows? Why does the rest of Revelation say that he carries a sword?

As you may or may not know, the book of Revelation contains many symbolic expressions in it, and things like the "bow" and the "sword," are weapons of warfare, and in connection with what was destined to occur during "the Lord's day," Jesus rides in fulfillment of the psalm at Psalm 110:2 in "subduing [the nations] in the midst of [his] enemies." In fact, at Hebrews 1:8, 9, the apostle Paul quotes from another psalm at Psalm 45:3-7 in which both the "sword" and "arrows" are mentioned in connection with Jesus' riding "in the cause of truth and humility and righteousness," with "dignity" and "splendor" as king, saying that "with reference to the Son" that Jesus holds "the scepter."

So I've heard from other [fundamentalist] Christians that this rider is actually a FALSE Jesus or antichrist. But how can you REALLY know that either? Maybe it is Jesus or maybe it is a false prophet.

I'm thinking that maybe you are one that has allowed himself to become confused by what should be a non-issue. How could the rider on the white horse be "the antichrist" as you say some fundamentalist Christians have concluded this rider to be? Let's think about this for a moment, for maybe, because the book of Revelation contains so many symbolisms in it, you have concluded the Bible to be inconsistent in some respects and schizoid in some other respects:

Would you be suggesting that the antichrist will be victorious in his totally "conquering and in completing his conquest"? IOW, in this revelation Jesus gives to the apostle John through an angel, which God had given to Jesus, that Jehovah foretells the thwarting of his purpose to install His own king over the kingdom of the world to bring righteous rulership to the earth by the antichrist? Do you really believe the antichrist to be stronger than Jehovah God or His Christ? (Revelation 1:1; 12:10)

Who really is the rider on the "white horse" at Revelation 6:2 with the "bow" and wearing the "crown" that was given him? If you need a clue, consider what Revelation 19:11-16 goes on to further say in describing the one seated upon the "white horse." One of the things this passage says is that this horseman "is called the Word of God." Now who do you think that could be? Could this be a reference to the antichrist? Or not? What protrudes from the mouth of this horseman, this passage says, is "a sharp long sword" that he might "strike the nations with it," but we are able to read "upon his outer garment [and] ... upon his thigh" his name: "King of kings and Lord of lords." Surely the fact that "King of kings and Lord of lords" is "the name written" upon the rider of the white horse's outer garment and thigh has to be a reference to the antichrist, right?

Wait! Let's also consider what it says at Revelation 17:14: "These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them." There are those words again: "Lord of lords" and "King of kings," and also the word "conquer," just as "conquering" was mentioned at Revelation 6:2, correct? Who is this "Lamb" that Revelation 6:1 says was the one responsible for opening the first of "the seven seals," if you know? Those coming out of the great tribulation have made their robes "white in the blood of the Lamb" Revelation 7:14 says, so do you know to who's blood this verse refers?

Remember, what we're doing here is just giving a bit of thought to all of these things that have been so confusing to you, ok? Tell me: Based on what things you know, do you believe it is even possible that the rider on the white horse is a "false Jesus or antichrist"? Or a "false prophet"? Or maybe the Lord Jesus Christ? How do you answer?

That seems to be my ending conclusion to so many things in the bible. I get to the end and think, "Ok...well [its] either Jehovah's organization, or [its] Satan's organization...or [its] no [one's] organization." It's always an either/or situation with everything. There are always 3 sides to every story, as the saying goes. How can any of us be SURE about ANYTHING?

I've never heard the "3 sides to every story" saying, but can you be sure that you are male? Or can you be sure that your mother is your mother or that your father is your father? Is there any doubt in your mind, assuming you have one of such, that one of your siblings is, in fact, your brother or sister? How many sides are there? Either something is true or not true. Without a doubt there is Jehovah's organization and there is Satan's organization. I am an integral part of Jehovah's organization -- a small part, but a part of God's organization nonetheless -- so there is no third side called "no [one's] organization." There's a "broad" road and a "narrow." Jesus didn't mention any "third" road. Why? Because no such road even exists!

"How can you be sure about anything," you asked? Because the truth has a certain ring to it, and falsehood doesn't ring true at all. Or do you have real doubts about your mother being your mother, as to whether your father is really your father, that your sister or your brother is truly your sister or your brother? Once you know the truth, @brotherdan, it is just as Jesus stated at John 8:32, "the truth will set you free" from what things you hear and read that fundamentalist Christians might be saying that are simply not true. I trust that you understand what I'm saying to you here. Or do doubts still remain in you?

@snowbird wrote:

God always gives a warning before He acts.

@sabastious wrote:

Please prove this before you call false analogy.

What's to prove? It is a scriptural fact that Jehovah won't do a single thing that affects mankind, good or bad, without His first "[revealing] his confidential matter to his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)

@brotherdan wrote:

@sabastious wrote:

Love.

Love? No, love doesn't work here nor can love explain why we can be certain as to what is or isn't true when it comes to God's word, the Bible. If someone's explanation of anything that the Bible contains should be in contradiction of other things that the Bible says, then you can be sure that that explanation is not true, for the Bible is infallible.

You have a new baby right? I remember reading that. My son turned 6 months old yesterday. My love for him and for my wife is the only thing I can be sure of, everything else is relative and cannot be used to pass judgement by our creator. What he must judge us on is our constant.

Your son may have now be, since 9/11, six months old and you may be absolutely sure that you love both your son and your wife, but you are not being judged by any "constant." The judgment with which Christ Jesus will judge the world will be based solely on obedience to the doing of God's will at this time, and nothing more.

@brotherdan:

I agree with the love part, Sab. But to believe in that, don't you have to throw the entire bible away? According to IT there is much more than love that he is looking for.

That's right. God isn't looking for love. What God is looking for are true worshipers, those that will worship Him "with spirit and truth.

@sabastious wrote:

Jesus knew [what] he was speaking there was to be read by the whole world for millenia to come.

@believingxjw wrote:

If that's the case then he would have also known that most people would never come to know about him and thus could never come to him. American Indians, Africans, Asians even Jews living in Babylon could not know Jesus. Millions upon millions have lived and died never knowing about him. He was speaking to his disciples, to those who knew him and those who would later come to know him as well.

It's true that Jesus was speaking to his disciples, but it is also true, as was observed by @sabastious," that what things Jesus told them would eventually come to be read by the whole world of mankind for whom Jesus died as a ransom in laying the basis for mankind's salvation. (1 John 2:2) But those American Indians, Africans, Asians or whoever either living in Babylon or living anywhere else on the planet were not left in the lurch, for Jesus' sacrifice covers the sins of these folks, too, despite the fact that these people may not ever have become acquainted with Jesus or with the good news of the kingdom.

It is during that 1,000-year Judgment Day that those who will have died without having had opportunity to hear those things that Jesus spoke in the hearing of his disciples will be given such an opportunity, and they will then have the opportunity to choose life, even as people today that Jehovah's Witnesses are reaching with the Kingdom message are being given opportunity.

Non-Christians have no obligation toward him at all. Unless of course he should make himself known to them. But that's another story and another scripture.

That might be "another story," but what it isn't is "another scripture," for not one of the Scriptures suggests that non-Christians have no obligation toward Jesus, the one to whom all judging has been committed, let alone an obligation toward Jehovah God! If you have such a scripture, I'll read it. Otherwise, you're lying against the truth.

@brotherdan:

Very nice point believingxjw... I guess I really haven't thought of it like that before.

I evidently missed @believingxjw's point. What point was that again?

@brotherdan wrote:

I agree with the love part, Sab. But to believe in that, don't you have to throw the entire bible away? According to IT there is much more than love that he is looking for.

@sabastious wrote:

Absolutely not. The Bible is a wealth of [insightful] accounts and stories that provide, like every sacred text, a window into the human condition.

Ok.

The story of the Bible is a story of a "chosen people" breaking the bonds of the destructive cycle of "us (Israel) vs them (Gentiles)" and allowing God to [be God to] ALL people through Jesus.

Not exactly. The Bible is about the fulfillment of God's prophecy at Genesis 3:15, which prophecy was advanced through the covenant into which God entered with Abraham with reference to God's Millennial kingdom by Jesus Christ that would represent God's divine sovereignty over the earth. There is no "us (Israel) v. them (Gentiles)" scenario described in this Bible, but what is described is God's dealings with one nation (Israel) through which the Abrahamic seed came to be born that through the perfect law that God gave to this one nation now all nations have come to know things about God that Israel came to learn about Him firsthand. (Romans 7:7-9)

Jesus it was that explained things about Jehovah and His purposes that had not formerly been revealed and through Jesus' apostles and God's holy spirit even more about Jehovah came to be revealed. (Romans 1:17; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 3:5, 6; 1 Peter 1:11, 12)

Jesus was like all of [us], just a man.

True.

But even 'just a man' can change the course of the world.

Also true.

He didn't have everything right and neither do we, which is why there is no Authority on the human condition. Only by examining all paths does one become to as close to truth as humanly possible. The second one "finds the truth" he stops on the Path to God.

Not true. Jesus did have everything right, for unlike us, he was a perfect man, one "able to bridle ... his own body." (James 3:2) It is not necessary for anyone to make an 'examination of all paths' in order to bring truth closer to them, as close "as humanly possible" (whatever that means!), and when one actually "finds the truth," it is like a hidden treasure, like silver, that one finds and hides in a field, a treasure that one prizes so much that one is moved 'to sell everything that one has in order to buy that field.' (Matthew 13:44) Find the truth and "in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God." (Proverbs 2:1-5)

@sabastious:

The Bible broke a new ground when it referred to "God as love." It is, and always will be, a giant step on the Path to God.

What does God's being the personification of love have to do with "the path to God"? What does God being love have to do with Jesus' having said (at John 14:6) what he did about 'no one being able to come to the Father except through him'?

@Pat_4037:

YES - [If] Jesus said I believe it. There is no condemnation for those who are in [Christ Jesus].

@Pat_4037 wrote:

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ [Jesus].

@sabastious wrote:

And those who are not?

While there is no condemnation for "those in union with Christ Jesus," there is for those that are not. (Romans 8:1) At John 3:18, Jesus explains that the reason the judgment is already in for those who are not in Christ Jesus is because they have "not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

@believingxjw wrote:

@sabastious wrote:

believingxjw, I think you are putting words into Jesus' mouth, but that can be a good thing since we don't have a whole lot of words from him.

@believingxjw wrote:

Lol, I did not put one word in Jesus' mouth. But I understand.

If not "putting words into Jesus' mouth," you have certainly marginalized Jesus' words at John 14:6 as to make them meaningless to those of us today that are his followers, that appreciate that it is only by means of our faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice that we even have access to the Father in prayer, so that He hears them, let alone the forgiveness of our sins and you know what, @believingxjw? You don't get to marginalize any of Jesus' words for me.

@snowbird:

John 3:16-18 "This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him." MSG

The paraphrase from which you quote here distorts, even perverts the words of the apostle John, and actually distorts what Jesus had stated on this occasion, for one of the reasons God sent Jesus into the world was to condemn the world as wicked, for Jesus said that "he that believes and is baptized will be saved, but he that does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

After talking about those that loved the glory of men that they did seeking ways that they might glorify God, Jesus stated the following at John 12:44-50:

"He that puts faith in me puts faith, not in me [only], but in him [also] that sent me; and he that beholds me beholds [also] him that sent me. I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness.... He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day.... [T]he Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me them, so I speak them."

Jesus did not come "to put the world right again"; that may be the dream of the writer of this paraphrasing you're using, but this world cannot be rehabilitated and it never will be rehabilitated, and this is what Jesus says about the god of this system of things, Satan the Devil: "The ruler of this world has been judged. (John 16:11) No one is acquitted of their sins by trusting Jesus. What does this even mean? Acquittal is achieved by one's death (Romans 6:7, but by our exercising faith in Jesus. Let me be clear: Exercising faith in Jesus is not the same as trusting Jesus.

Trusting that no intrusion of your purse that you accidentally left at the office containing your valuable things will occur overnight is not the same thing as picking up the phone to find someone that could give you a ride to the office today so that you can might retrieve your purse. Trusting requires no real effort at all on your part, while trying to find someone that could drive you to the office demonstrates faith in action from the moment you picked up the telephone to call someone. If you don't understand this, then you will certainly die in your ignorance.

I will agree though that mankind has "been under the death sentence without knowing it," but this death sentence has nothing at all to do with whether anyone has ever been introduced to Jesus, for the death sentence was imposed on the entire human family after Adam's sin, which is why, before Christ, we were without hope in the world, centuries before Jesus ever came to the earth.

@sabastious wrote:

So there is no condemnation?

@Psacramento:

Jesus died for the whole world, not just for those that [believed] in him and followed him.

It is the world of redeemable mankind for whom Jesus died, while many of these very ones for whom Jesus died are even now pursuing a sinful course in life, but, at great cost to Himself, Jehovah is lovingly extending His undeserved kindness and goodness toward the whole world of mankind as He wants all mankind to change course and repent. Jehovah then imputes righteousness to such repentant ones and they become personal friends of Jehovah, in the same way that Abraham was called "Jehovah's friend." (2 Peter 3:9; James 2:23)

There is a reason why only God and jesus will judge come the [resurrection], because they KNOW.

What do you mean? With this statement, you kinda sound a bit like you could be one of those to whom Jesus said at Luke 19:44 about their "Armageddon" at the conclusion of the Jewish system of things in a miniature fulfillment of what our Armageddon will mean for our present system of things when he prophesied about the Romans that "they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected."

Jesus will judge (not Jehovah) and this will not wait until the 1,000-year Judgment Day as you seem to believe, but you for some reason don't seem to "discern the time of your being inspected" right now during the current manifestation of Jesus' presence. The only people that will be around during Judgment Day are the "great crowd" of survivors of the judgment at Armageddon and the resurrected dead.

All will have the chance to know the Father through Jesus, in this life for some and in the next for the rest, the choice will be, as always theirs.

But those people that are not among the Armageddon survivors will not be numbered among "the rest" that will have their chance to get to know both Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ during Judgment Day. They will all be forever dead.

Matthew 25 gives a hint of things that Jesus views as worthy.

What exactly does Matthew 25 say that you believe are "hints of things that Jesus views as worthy"?

Not all will have the chance to know Jesus and some will [know] a false Jesus and be scarred, they will have a second chance, all will know the Lord and then...ah then...:)

There will be no second chances. Everyone gets once chance, and then "after this [life]," the Bible clearly says, comes "a judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) In fact, at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 points out that "at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels ... he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus [and will] ... undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction," so it's just not true that "all will know the Lord."

Jesus is THE way because we can't know God except through Jesus, as the term son of man exemplifies [the one that] is "man", the son of God exemplifies the one that is God.

Actually, Jesus is "the way" because it is Jehovah God's purpose that Jesus should lead the world of mankind to reconciliation with Him. Jesus was the son of God, but he didn't exemplify God so much as explain Him any more so than he exemplified man though he was a perfect man "without sin." (John 1:18; Hebrews 4:15)

For those that find Jesus while alive, there is a special "life after death" before the "life after the life after death", for those that don't accept or are introduced to Jesus while alive there is the hope at [resurrection]. There is grace for all [and hope] for all for there is love for all. All will not become beneficiaries of God's grace though.

There is no hope for those that do not accept Jesus, and for those that do not know God have rejected God's goodness. They will not become beneficiaries of Jehovah's undeserved kindness, which He provides through Christ Jesus. Based on what the Bible states at 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9, those who do not know God will not be introduced to Jesus after Armageddon (I don't know on what you based these statements here), for those not obedient to the good news about our Lord Jesus "will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction."

@sabastious:

Syl, why are you using a paraphrased Bible to prove points?

@Psacramento wrote:

Matthew 25 gives a hint of things that Jesus views as worthy.

@sabastious wrote:

I should be so appreciative of this "hint" shouldn't I?

@Psacramento wrote:

@sabastious wrote:

How can you type this with a straight face? Convoluted mess, imo.

@brotherdan:

I must interject here for a moment. Sab, the argument that you bring up is a valid one (i.e. Why must all choose YOUR God when many do not have the opportunity to choose him).

Is this @sabastious' argument or is this your argument? You were the one that wrote earlier:

If this interpretation is correct, would there be those that don't have the opportunity to come to God today? The answer would be yes...to a point.

If you were so concerned with the eternal salvation of all mankind, then you would be one of those out there in the harvest during the manifestation of Jesus' presence doing whatever it is you can do to proclaim not "the good news of Jesus and the resurrection" (Acts 17:18) as was done during the first century AD, but the good news about the established kingdom of God since Jesus was installed in the heavenly government as king, and about the fact that since 1914 Jesus has been ruling over his followers "in the midst of his enemies." (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 12:10; Psalm 110:2)

It is by Jesus' followers making disciples that more can be sent to where the need for evangelizers is greater, so if you are not one of those 'putting your hands to his or her plow' and applying yourself to the work that needs to be done before the end comes, then you are, in part, the reason that some will die without having been presented with the opportunity to come to God through Christ, right? (Luke 9:62) Salvation is based on how people respond to the good news, for if one has not heard it, they will perish along with those that have heard it, but who are not obedient to the good news. (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9) That is why the work of Jehovah's Witnesses is so urgent, for billions of people are going to perish at Armageddon!

It is by our doing the work that Jesus has given us to do that we can truly demonstrate neighbor love, for Jesus didn't say that God was saving everyone, but only those that come to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 14:6)

Look at this from a different perspective however.

Ok.

Christians say that you must accept Jesus.

Actually, Christians say that you must demonstrate their faith in God by following Jesus.

Muslims and Islam (radical and non-radical) say that all those that do not follow Muhammad's teachings are "infidels".

If one should be an unbeliever, if one should be without faith, then he or she does not follow the teachings of Christ Jesus, and is by definition an infidel, no? Maybe you should read 1 Timothy 5:8 and 2 Corinthians 6:15 in the King James Version so that you do not think somehow that Christianity teaches differently than does Islam in this regard in connection with faith. But what possible difference could it make to a Christian what an infidel believes when apart from coming to God through Christ, absolutely no one in any other religion will be saved?

In fact the Qu'ran is ONLY holy when it is read in Arabic.

If Christians believe Jehovah God to have inspired the writing of the Bible, then if Jehovah didn't inspire the writing of the Qu'ran, by what measurement can this book be deemed "holy," whether it be written in Arabic, in English ,in Spanish or in any other language?

Atheists believe that they are right and all those that have a spiritual belief (i.e god, universal energy, etc...) are wrong and they are living as ignorant unthinking people.

Basically everyone thinks they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

The question is, What do you think?

We will all see what is real and what is not when we die, Jesus comes, a Jihad overtakes Christianity and the west, the sun supernovas, or whatever else we predict.

I'm sorry, but how on earth will anyone dead see what is real and what is not real? What does a jihad have to do with Christianity? A heretic in Islam is not different than a heretic in one of Christendom's denominations for a jihad is as much a so-called holy war against those not adhering to Islam as the Crusades was a holy war against those not adhering to Christianity

their respective religions, but neither movement has anything at all to do with true Christianity since Christians do not engage in carnal warfare. Christians simply do not wage warfare according to what they are in the flesh, despite the fact some may appraise us as if we walk as others do, when the reality is that Christians walk in the spirit and our weapons are spiritual. (2 Corinthians 10:2-5)

I TRULY feel this way: We can be certain of very little.

I think you are speaking for yourself when you say that "we can be certain of very little." I think it would be more accurate were you to have said here that you can be certain of very little, which is a statement about "you" and not about "we."

Those that are certain and have unquestionable faith in something can't have TRUE knowledge. That applies (IMO) to Christians to Muslims to Atheists.

In what do you have faith? Do you believe in things that are unseen like gravity or the air we breath? Do you have unquestionable faith that when you awaken in the morning that you will not find yourself floating above the floor on which you typically walk or do you lay awake at night fearing the possibility that gravity isn't real? Or, do you have nights of insomnia over your fear that the air you breath is an unreality and tomorrow you will suffocate to death due to lack of whatever it is that has been keeping you alive? If you don't believe that day follows night and night follows day, then what would constitute true knowledge in your mind. I submit that true knowledge does exist and we can have unquestioning faith in what things we know even if we should have no religious beliefs at all, which btw has nothing at all to do with true knowledge.

Does an atheist KNOW what happens after death and that there is not a supreme being waiting there afterwards? He CANNOT know.

There is religious faith that some have, and belief in things like evolution is a religious faith, too, except the faith possessed by an atheist is faith that the ideas and philosophies of men represent true knowledge. Why worry about the atheist if Jehovah doesn't. If anyone should not believe that God exists, then God has said in His word that he is "senseless," a fool. (Psalm 14:1)

The reality is that we all have to learn and use logic, emotions, faith, and whatever we have at our disposal to try and figure out what we believe.

Ok.

But we should all be open to other ideas. And that is what I am struggling with every day.

Why should we be open to other ideas, especially when there is but one truth? Do you not realize why it is you struggle every day? It is because you have rejected the truth and are looking for another truth when there is no other truth, and the consequence is that you have been "carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error." (Ephesians 4:14) You are open to other ideas, because you do not have "faith in the truth," ergo the reason that you unnecessarily struggle. (2 Thessalonians 2:13) That's too bad.

@sabastious:

What you say rings true in my original point, and how I live my life in general.

What exactly did @brotherdan state that you are here saying "rings true"? Earlier, @brotherdan wrote:

I must interject here for a moment. Sab, the argument that you bring up is a valid one (i.e. Why must all choose YOUR God when many do not have the opportunity to choose him).

I'm not sure if this was your argument or @brotherdan's, but he it was that wrote the following:

If this interpretation is correct, would there be those that don't have the opportunity to come to God today? The answer would be yes...to a point.

Like I said to @brotherdan, if you are not among those 'putting their hands to the plow' and applying themselves to the life-saving work that God has given us to do through the ministry with which his disciples have been commissioned in connection with the preaching of the good news of the established kingdom of God, then you are yourself going to held responsible by God for some perishing at the revelation of Jesus Christ, for the work that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing that has the potential of saving people's lives permits Jesus' disciples to demonstrate neighbor love to those for whom Jesus died, for only those that come to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. (John 14:6) Salvation is based on how people respond to the good news, for if one has not heard it, they will perish along with those that have heard it, but who are not obedient to the good news. (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9)

All mainstream religions think this way. The fact that Syl and PSSac don't want to see their beliefs for what they truly are, as spiritual and religious [intolerance] is exactly why I feel compelled to speak out.

Think what way? Both @snowbird's and @Psacramento's beliefs are informed ignorance, since with them both having once been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses, they have to know that their beliefs are not in harmony with Bible truth.

I believe that subtle implications, of belief systems, have profound impact on the believers and on the world around us.

There are no "subtle implications" of anything that have any impact whatsoever on the beliefs of true Christians, but "believing the lie" will have an adverse impact upon the world around us. ((2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Mainstream religion has a responsibility to teach [its] members to stay away from Us vs Them beliefs and concepts. If that means disregarding something Jesus said so be it, he would want you to do it and probably didn't even say it to begin with.

Maybe it does have such a responsibility, but what does mainstream religion have to do with coming to the Father through Christ? Maybe you're right about mainstream religion (e.g., Christianity, Judasism, Islam) disregarding some of Jesus' teachings because they do not really believe in any of the things that Jesus taught, but true Christianity does not do this, and there is no doubt in the minds of Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus did say all of what the gospels attribute to Jesus "to begin with."

If spiritual [intolerance] can be done away with our species can start to progress and tackle the real problems that face our way of life.

The real problem that exists with "our way of life" is that many people continue to be alienated from God, and this is the problem – the real problem – with our inability to make progress with our having been born in sin and death in view. Religious intolerance, or "spiritual intolerance," is only a problem among the non-Christian religions, including mainstream Christianity, because Jehovah's Witnesses simply do not believe in the interfaith movements that mainstream religions often promote, believing only in the worship of Jehovah God.

Christians and all other members of intolerant belief systems must realize the truth about what they believe and how it is affecting the WORLD, and it's future.

And what truth would that be exactly? As the Bible makes clear, "the world is passing away," so if the world isn't persuaded to realize the truth that the time remaining for this world is reduced, then apart from people coming to God through Christ, no one else in this world can expect to have any future beyond the revelation of Jesus Christ; they will all perish. (1 John 2:17)

It is in their hands, it is in their minds where this change must take place. No one can force them to look into their systems critically, so the only offense is information.

I agree with you here, at least in part. We must all 'be transformed by making their mind over that we might prove to ourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.' (Romans 12:2 )

that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. You speak of information that leads one to come to God through Christ as if it were an "offense," which I don't get your meaning.

@Ding:

In response to the thread's question.

2. Jesus also said that the road is broad that leads to destruction and that the road to life is small and that few find it (Matthew 7:13-14). In view of the fact that Revelation 19:1 describes a great crowd, I interpret Jesus' words to mean many that RELATIVELY few find the way to God in comparison to all the people in the history of the world.

Ok.

3. I realize that Jesus' words are very offensive. I would like to believe that everyone will find their way to God. If you believe that or if you want to believe there are many different paths to God, you are free to do so, but please recognize that you are at odds with Jesus on that issue.

It is true that if one thinks that everyone will find their way to God that they don't appreciate that Jesus is telling us that there are "few" people that will repent and become reconciled with God through Christ's ransom. That anyone should think that Jesus was suggesting at Matthew 7:13, 14, that those on that "broad" way would also find their way to God, they should seriously reconsider this thought.

4. I realize that many on this forum have cast aside the Bible along with the Watchtower and have concluded that the whole thing is a bunch of unreliable religious nonsense. Again, you have every right to believe what you choose, but for those who still trust the Bible, I think we have to take Jesus' hard sayings with all the others and accept or reject him on his terms rather than trying to rewrite him into the person we want him to be.

Anyone that claims to believe in what things the Bible teaches and maligns Jehovah, the only true God, is a liar. Thinking that one can abide by the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ and disregard the very things on which Jesus' teachings are based elsewhere in the Bible is to live in a delusional state and is essentially doing what those folks did during the presence of Noah in taking no note of the message that he preached "until the flood came and swept them all away." (Matthew 24:39) This is exactly the way Jesus said it would be during his presence.

@Ding wrote:

@brotherdan wrote:

Does an atheist KNOW what happens after death and that there is not a supreme being waiting there afterwards? He CANNOT know.

@leavingwt wrote:

Are believers and non-believers on an equal footing on this topic, in your opinion? Or, does the [Christian] KNOW, because the Bible or Jesus told them so?

@brotherdan wrote:

I think all humans are on equal ground on this topic, LWT. I guess that's a bit different than the song I was singing a month ago, huh?

@sabastious wrote:

All humans are welcome, except for the ones mentioned in Leviticus 21:

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled footor hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy. [e] ' "

@leavingwt:

I think you're keeping your eyes and ears open and you're not ignoring the evidence. This is admirable.

Do you really think it apt to be describing @brotherdan as someone that keeps his "eyes and ears open," let alone someone that doesn't ignore evidence that argues against what things he believes to be true? Ok.

I remember how scary it was to realize that I will one day die, not having the answers to an infinite number of seemingly important questions. It takes a little while to reach the point of enjoying the journey, despite this reality.

It must be very sad being you when you could be me, @leavingwt, full of and satisfied with the available answers now and full of faith and looking forward to more answers in the future.

@brotherdan:

I'd be ok...until he said the part about the damaged testicles...

Just kidding... My testicles are fine. They are strong and healthy and have a nice shiny glow about them...

How exactly did your mind drift from the topic raised in this thread by @sabastious to segue into one about your testicles, damaged or not?

@brotherdan:

LWT: One of [your] posts, believe it or not, is one that I will never forget. It was something like, "It's not death that we should focus on, but that which makes death the fulfillment."

I probably murdered that quote...sorry.

One's focus today ought to be on neighbor love, on following his lead in doing what things are necessary to help others to gain life, which is the work that Jesus gave his followers to do. "The second, like [the first one], is this, 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Matthew 22:39) I don't think I'm guilty of murdering this quote.

@brotherdan wrote:

LWT: One of [your] posts, believe it or not, is one that I will never forget. It was something like, "It's not death that we should focus on, but that which makes death the fulfillment."

I probably murdered that quote...sorry.

@leavingwt wrote:

Yeah, I like that quote, too. I'm uncertain of the source. It's basically another way of saying "Get busy living or get busy dying", too, I think.

Maybe so, but when I read your message, I thought of what the apostle Paul said at 1 Corinthians 15:32, namely, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die," for those that tend to say this or say things like "get busy living or get busy dying" do so because they exist without hope.

@sabastious wrote:

believingxjw, I think you are putting words into Jesus' mouth, but that can be a good thing since we don't have a whole lot of words from him.

@notverylikely:

Jesus was a guy who's dad was obsessed with penises, was a single guy traveling around preaching love with 12 other single guys, rubbing oil on their feet and taking boat rides together. I bet that wasn't the only thing put into his mouth.

You say this, of course, because you don't know the Scriptures, that most of the apostles were married men, and specifically the apostle Peter was married. (1 Corinthians 9:5; Matthew 8:14) You refers to Jehovah in your post as having an obsession with penises, when His obsession, if we must call it that, was with being merciful toward mankind in sending his son, Jesus, to die as a ransom for our sins that those appreciative of Jesus' ransom might become reconciled to Him. But, no, you would rather advance here the notion of Jehovah God "being obsessed with penises" and the Lord Jesus Christ fellating these "single" men. You're gay, that's fine, but what does your sexual proclivities have to do with what Jesus stated at John 14:6 about 'no one coming to the Father, except through him'? Nothing at all.

And yes, on the incredibly impossible chance that God/Jesus are real, I AM going to hell for that thankyouverymuch.

What does that mean, "on the incredibly impossible chance that God/Jesus are real"?

@wiser wrote:

Yes!!!

@sabastious wrote:

Why!!!

@notverylikely:

And yes, on the incredibly impossible chance that God/Jesus are real, I AM going to hell for that thankyouverymuch.

@sabastious wrote:

If the Bible is correct then I would take the Witness [Gehenna] over Hell [any day.]

If the Bible is correct...?

@Psacramento wrote:

@THE GLADIATOR wrote:

This is more complicated than I realized. Is this from a part of the bible that is inspired, or is it a personal revelation?

@wiser:

The shortened version of the scripture, I am the way, the [truth, and] none comes to the father except by me(Jesus). Every christian stands on this verse. The bible is our foundation.

Well, not everyone that makes this claim, that they stand on what Jesus says at John 14:6, is a Christian. Once upon a time, they may have been, but there are those that latch onto certain scriptural verses with which they are fascinated, which verses become their favorite "pet" scriptures, but which have no real significance to them because they have no interest now in coming to the Father by exercising faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Because at the moment it continues to be fashionable to make the claim of being a Christian, the ability to quote from memory verses like John 3:16 and John 14:6 is the extent to which folks exercise faith in God (especially those professed Christians that believe Jesus to be God). Jesus said at John 3:16-18 indicates that God knew that some in the world could be redeemed and so provided His son that those exercising faith in his ransom might not be destroyed along with the rest of the world that God has already judged. Adding to this point, Jesus is saying at John 14:6 that there is no other way that we can become reconciled to God, except by our exercising faith in Jesus' ransom.

As made clear at John 14:1, Jesus is here talking not just about our exercising faith in him, but saying that if we are exercising faith in God, then we must exercise faith in him, too. Many professed Christians do not believe in Jehovah God, but profess belief in Christ, preferring to believe that Jesus is God, which leaves God completely out of the picture, meaning that all such persons will be destroyed along with the rest of the world [why?] because they have are not doing God's will and so have yet to become reconciled with Him.

@ sabastious:

there are two questions in my OP, you answered the first.

@Chalam:

Yes. Here's more

Ephesians 2:18 (New International Version)

18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Here, the apostle Paul is making reference to the gift of prayer that Christians possess in that we are assured that Jehovah hears our prayers if the things for which we ask Him we ask in Jesus' name. (John 15:16)

Hebrews 10:19-20 (New International Version)

19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body

This "new and living way" that was opened for anointed Christians into the Most Holy is not what John 14:6 is talking about at all, for not all Christians can enter the Most Holy. Why you quoted Hebrews 10:19, 20, isn't clear.

John 10:7-10 (New International Version)

7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Those that came before Jesus were not offering life, but were in reality those that sought to rob folks of the everlasting blessings that God offers those that enter the sheepfold through Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

What Jesus is saying at Matthew 7:21-23 is that not everyone that claims to be a Christian will enter into the blessings of the kingdom of heaven, that is, not everyone that professes belief in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, for Jesus will not recognize those that quote the scriptures in Jesus' name as evildoers, as "workers of lawlessness."

John 1:51 (New International Version)

51He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

Indeed, as in Jacob's vision at Genesis 28:12, Jesus is there telling his apostle Nathaniel at John 1:51 that he would eventually come to appreciate that Jesus is the Son of God once he realizes that heaven is in communication with Jesus, that God's angels ascend and descend between God and the Son of man.

You quoted all of these texts -- Ephesians 2:18, Hebrews 10:19, 20, John 10:7-10, Matthew 7:21-23 and John 1:51 -- but not one of these have a thing to do with what Jesus says at John 14:6. I assume that you desired to make a point, but what exactly was it?

@sabastious:

And the second question?

Your second question was:

Do you understand the condemnation this belief puts on 3 quarters of the world?

However, your first question was:

Do you believe this message [at John 14:6]?

What was his response to this question? I must have missed it.

@sabastious:

Is he referring too YHWH too?

Well, considering the fact that Jehovah it was that sent Jesus to be the shepherd of the sheep, then John 10:7-10 would to implicate Jehovah -- YHWH -- since Jesus served as His representative, and it was "YHWH" that sent Jesus forth as such. (John 7:29; 17:7-8)

@ wiser:

Sorry. One of the many doctrines that our faith disagrees with the JWs was hell. Our hell is not [gehenna], but a real place of torment. Rev20:14-15.

What are you talking about exactly? Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe there to exist any place of fiery torment called "Gehenna" or "hell," where God fiendishly stands over persons being tortured in this fire for an eternity for their sins either. Your faith can be whatever you want it to be, but this is not the faith of true Christians, who are not ignorant as to the meaning of the symbolisms as to which you have evidently developed a faith all your own based on what you think the book of Revelation teaches. The "lake of fire" that we read about at Revelation 20:14, 15, is a symbolic place, it doesn't really exist, but, in fact, is a symbol of nonexistence where Satan, the wild beast, the false prophet and death will all be hurled and "tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

@sabastious wrote:

Is Ghandi in hell right now?

@wiser wrote:

According to scripture no one is in hell right now. First, all mankind must be judged this will take place at the end of time. No one knows whether Ghandi accepted Christ or not. Only God himself knows all humankind and their hearts at death.

@sabastious wrote:

I think we could figure that based on his words and actions.

Everyone that is not of the anointed that will be among the resurrected dead are in the Bible hell, where Jesus himself spent parts of three days. (Acts 2:32) If Ghandi had never had witness borne to him about the Christ -- not some false Christ that is Christendom's three-in-one God whose followers worship in trinity -- then he will be among the resurrected dead since those that die have been acquitted of their sins, and so will be among "the righteous and the unrighteous" that will rise during Judgment Day along with the Ninevites. (Romans 6:7; 24:15; Acts 24:15; Luke 11:32) For it may be that Ghandi will receive a favorable judgment during Judgment Day. (Hebrews 9:27)

Ghandi was not a Christian, but he will likely be among the :unrighteous" that receive a resurrection during Judgment Day. (Acts 24:15) One cannot possibly do the works of Christ, without having heard Christ. Ghandi may have heard the words of professed Christians, and maybe even heard the words of the Bible read to him or paraphrased by Jehovah's Witnesses. He may even have read the Bible itself, but whatever faith the man have had, he may have heard the name of the Jehovah, but he didn't know the true God, nor did he come to know his son, who it was that glorified God's name.

@sabastious wrote:

Can you explain [what you meant by the expression, "for those who still trust the Bible"?

@Ding wrote:

By "trust the Bible," I mean at least believe that it accurately records the words of Jesus.

The Bible contains so much more than the words of Jesus though; it is the word of God.

By "still trust" I meant I was acknowledging that there are many on this forum who used to believe that the Bible was the word of God who no longer believe that.

And this is sad, isn't it?

Apropos to this thread, there's also John 3:16-18: ... "18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." If you're offended by verse 18, don't blame me. I didn't write it. Just reminding everyone of what it says because it's relevant to the discussion.

Many people do not believe in Jesus as being the one that God sent to redeem them from their debt to God as sinners, for it they did they would be indebted to his having come to earth and dying on their behalf for 'hardly would anyone die for a righteous man' and Jesus died on behalf of unrighteous persons (Romans 5:7; 1 Peter 3:18)

@sabastious wrote:

So it's ok to believe that the Bible didn't accurately record the Hebrew history? Or if Paul was a nutcase? And still be in your definition of "trusting the Bible"?

Jehovah God inspired the recording of what things we read in the Bible as to the history of the Hebrews as well as what things we read in it that were penned by the apostle Paul, so no matter how @Ding might answer your question, to trust the Bible means to accept the veracity of what it says, even if it should tell of things (e.g., miracles) that scientists simply cannot replicate or of future events that have not yet occurred.

@sabastious:

The conversation I am having with some Christians on this thread REALLY reminds me of some of the debates I have had with Witnesses in regards to the DF'ing arrangement. The Witnesses just can't get it out of their head that DF'ing isn't loving. They refuse to examine their belief. They put the blinders up and hide behind pious words. Very similar to what is going on here in this thread.

You evidently do not believe in discipline, for disfellowshipping is the way in which God disciplines those he loves; one should really not belittle it. If we gave respect to our own parents who would discipline us for our own good according to what they thought to be of profit to us, why shouldn't we subject ourselves to Jehovah who does so that we might live? I'm just paraphrasing here what Hebrews 12:9, 10, says.

Discipline also serves the purpose of protecting the spirit in the congregation from contamination by the unwholesome influence of those that have formed a very different opinion than what they had in the beginning when they were first learning how they might best serve God, so disfellowshipping can serve to help the errant one learn obedience and can help Christians endure the trials they might experience from such disgruntled disfellowshipped ones that might be related to us. We believe that "God makes all of [his] works cooperate together for the good of those who love [Him]"(Romans 8:28), even if you don't, @sabastious, and you prefer to believe disfellowshipping to be unloving. Believe what you wish, but you really need to examine your own beliefs in this regard since they are discordant with those taught in the Bible.

If one should choose to be cynical toward the message that Jesus preached regarding this good news of the kingdom, that cynicism can, and in many instances (I imagine) will lead to folks losing their lives due to their unwillingness to believe the things that are recorded in the Bible for the preservation of our lives. While for many varied reasons, it may be difficult or even impossible to trust the word of some people, "God is not a man that he should tell lies" (Numbers 23:19), so where God is concerned, there is no reason for anyone to be cynical regarding any of the things that He says in His word, the Bible, for it is an impossibility for God to lie. Lovers of Jehovah do not doubt the veracity of His promises, so let me say what I just said again: "It is impossible for God to lie." (Hebrews 6:18)

Hebrews 12:6 says that Jehovah "scourges every one whom he receives as a son," and even Jesus was scourged by Jehovah as He permitted His own son to experience tribulations and suffering, including Jesus' having to endure a torture stake through "strong outcries and tears" in his reverential fear of the Father, until He finally delivered Jesus from death's grip by a resurrection, though which discipline Jesus gained the needed experience to be the compassionate and sympathetic high priest that he has become.

So whatever trials or tribulations are brought against a Christian from anyone in Satan's world or from anyone that has chosen to remain a part of the world (especially those trials brought against us by our own relatives), our ability to endure these trials is tested, and as we rely more fully upon Jehovah, we develop steadfastness, constancy and integrity, and we are strengthened to resist such attacks against our faith, for all such "tribulation produces endurance; endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope." (Romans 5:3, 4) With the joy set before us, we gladly pick up and accept our own torture stake as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 10:38; 16:24)

It was through Jesus Christ that God initiated a separation work among the people of the nations, including among family members, and that He is providing forgiveness of sins and salvation to those that hear and respond favorably to the message of reconciliation that began to be preached by Jesus and his apostles, and continues to be preached today by means of His Witnesses. Although Jehovah God knows that there would be those who would be cynical toward the message regarding this good news of the kingdom, He has allowed sufficient time for His message to reach honest-hearted individuals that are sighing and groaning over the things taking place on the earth that would be willing to make changes in their lives so as to become the kind of people that can love their neighbors and live peaceably with them, for only those willing to do His will be those marked for salvation.

Jesus mentioned at Matthew 10:35-37 that the message about the kingdom will not only serve as a sword that divides family members from one another, but that one's enemies may be members of their own household due to the desire of some in the family to follow a course in opposition to God's will, and that this call to service may prove to be a test of one's faith in God and in Christ, a test as to whether they really love God and Christ, and a test as to whether they really want to live under the promised kingdom of Jesus Christ in righteousness, since God knows that not everyone that claims that they want to live in accord with God's will and His righteousness will take whatever steps are necessary, including the acceptance of God's discipline if need be, with a view to demonstrating their faith in God and in Christ.

Specifically, Jesus said that he had come "to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law" and that anyone having "greater affection for father or mother than for [him] is not worthy of [Jesus]; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for [him] is not worthy of [Jesus]." Also, at Matthew 10:38, Jesus stated that one must be willing to "accept [their] torture stake and follow after him," else they would not be worthy of being separated as being one of his followers from those that will perish.

One's "torture stake" may involve our having to deal adversely with our own family members that (1) don't appreciate, (2) no longer appreciate or (3) do not wish to accept the fact that you have more affection, even "greater affection," for Jesus than we do for them because of our love for the hope of the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, because we have become decidedly separated to that which we are persuaded to be God's power for salvation, and because of our desire to gain life and not lose it. (Acts 10:36; Colossians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Romans 1:1, 16; Matthew 10:39)

Indeed, even though one should experience many trials upon acceptance of their torture stake for Jesus' sake, among these being the loss of what was once a "normal" family life free of bickering and infighting over one's disloyalty to a family member and loyalty to the Christ, or even the loss of one's own soul, which might well include the loss of one's mate should "the unbelieving one proceed to depart" on account of the Christ (1 Corinthians 7:15), the believer will find his or her soul again under the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. As Matthew 10:40 says, anyone that receives Jesus also receives Jehovah God, who it was that sent Jesus to preach this good news regarding God's kingdom.

@thenoblelodge:

I guess everyone is blind until they see things the way we want them to.

@notverylikely:

No, until they take off the blinders and look at all sides.

I must disagree because there are those whose minds have been blinded by the god of this system of things, and they will remain blind until they are able to see the glorious good news about the Christ in the way God wants them to do so, for until these blind ones should finally turn to Jehovah, the veil will remain upon their hearts. (2 Corinthians 4:4; 3:15, 16) There are only two sides: Jehovah's and Satan's.

@thenoblelodge:

NVL - And even though we do that we will still form our own point of view. Everybody does, even you.

@notverylikely:

Of course we do. However, suggesting that all POVs are equal is silly at best.

@sabastious:

Indeed, I believe the "everybody's a winner" argument is very lazy thinking.

Well, therein lies the problem, for what other point of view should we embrace than Jehovah's point of view? It is not true that everybody forms his or her own point of view, for, in Christ, there is but one point of view so that all Christians should "speak in agreement, and ... be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" (1 Corinthians 1:10), for only God's POV matters, so the real question is this: Is God's POV our POV?

@sabastious wrote:

If so, do you understand the condemnation this belief puts on 3 quarters of the world?

@snowbird wrote:

Your question was about the 3/4 who don't view Jesus as the Way. There is no condemnation for them. How could there be?

Huh?

I use a paraphrased Bible (The Message) because it gets the point across better than most.

@sabastious wrote:

I looked up a few of the scriptures you posted in actual translations and there were some very questionable differences. I would suggest using a translation if you are going to use the Bible to prove a point.

Actually, a paraphrase Bible must by definition miss the finer points, since it is not a literal translation of the Bible, so that when rephrasing Bible verses, it modifies the word of God and, therefore, obscures the Bible's message. For example, earlier in this thread, you quoted John 3:17 from this paraphrase Bible, which reads:

God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. (MSG)

Actually, this verse obscures what Jesus says at John 3:17:

For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. (NWT)

This paraphrase Bible distorts what the apostle John wrote, distorts what Jesus had actually said, for only "he that believes and is baptized will be saved, but he that does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) Jesus did not come "to put the world right again" because Jesus knew full well that Satan cannot be rehabilitated, that this world cannot be rehabilitated. I agree with @sabastious here that you, @snowbird, should not rely upon what you might read in a paraphrase Bible.

@sabastious wrote:

If so, do you understand the condemnation this belief puts on 3 quarters of the world?

@snowbird wrote:

Your question was about the 3/4 who don't view Jesus as the Way. There is no condemnation for them. How could there be?

@sabastious wrote:

You said that they are not condemned because [Revelation] accounts for those who I am referring to (people in countries not [available] to Christianity for what ever reason). [Revelation] is a terrible reference IMO. It has about 10 [trillion] different interpretations (yet you seem to quote it like it's obvious, think about that for a second.)

No, it isn't; there is but one interpretation of the book of Revelation and the other 10 trillion interpretations that might exist don't have any significance to true Christians since they would all of them be false interpretations. As I stated earlier, what @snowbird quoted in response to your question about "the three quarters of the world" from Revelation 21:21-27 is just nonsense, for she says that "Christians have access to the Father now," while non-Christians, "the others," as she called them, would be given access "later," when after the revelation of Jesus Christ, there will be no "later" for these "others."

Condemnation can only mean death for those not exercising faith in Jesus Christ for they have not been relieved of the condemnation of sin through their dedicating themselves to God to do His will as will have all baptized Christians being saved. We can only hope that it's only three quarters of the world that perishes, for while the "U.S. & World Population Clock" currently indicates a world population of 6,874,078,491, it is not likely to be billions, but only millions now living that will not suffer condemnation, a number less than that of the current US population of 300,006,956.

@sabastious wrote:

Syl, you never answered this question:

Please give me an equally descriptive scripture(s) that supports your concept of "others coming to the Father, later on."

John 14:6 is very easy to understand and descriptive as Jesus is talking to his disciples.

Your argument to my OP is that [Revelation] accounts for the people Jesus is NOT referring to when he says:

No one comes to the Father except through me

Please give me an equally concise (not a parable or interpreted vision) scripture or scriptures that refers to this "other group" that is not counted in the above quote.

@tec wrote:

You didn't ask me, Sab, and I think perhaps Leaving was asking earlier about those who don't belong to Christ, so here is the clearest scripture I can currently think of, concerning the fate of some of those who do not belong to Christ:

Matthew 10: 42 "And if anyone gives a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

@tec also wrote:

Of course... this might mean that they actually DO belong to Christ... whether they know it or not, themselves.

This notion that those that someone that might give "a cup of cold water" to one of Jehovah's Witnesses in recognition of the fact that he or she is one of Jehovah's Witnesses and be given the same reward as would a righteous man that is actively engaged in doing the work of a righteous man, as expressed here by @tec, is a case of warped, delusional rationale, for at Matthew 10:42, when he refers to those giving refreshment to Jesus' brothers, Jesus is not there referring to humanitarian gestures or human kindnesses at all and I will not mince words here:

What I am saying here to those that should think Matthew 10:42 to be some other way or "back door" into their being able to come to the Father, apart from repentance and exercising faith in Jesus' ransom, there is no other way to become reconciled to God. This means that former Witnesses and all persons not providing active support to the work should not expect to be among those that are going to receive "a righteous man's reward" when they are "workers of lawlessness," no matter how kindly they may have treated Jehovah's Witnesses at their doors. (Matthew 10:41; 7:22, 23)

Those that belong to Christ know that they belong to Christ. To even think that there might be some among mankind that can actually come to God without their knowing that they belong to Christ is to advance the flawed argument that one can come to God except through faith in Christ's ransom sacrifice, when Jesus explicitly states at John 14:6 that 'no one comes to the Father except through Jesus.'

@sabastious:

Matt: 10: 37-42: 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

^ What does the bolded text mean?

I'm trying to figure out the context here:

Anyone who helps out a follower of Jesus (Prophets and [Righteous] ones) will be rewarded the same reward of the Prophets and the [Righteous]? And if anyone gives a cup of water to the ones that helped the Prophets and the [Righteous] will be a beneficiary as well?

Matthew 10:41, 42, speaks to one receiving a prophet or a righteous man in recognition of the fact that he is a prophet or is a righteous man. Those being baptized in the name of the Father as the Supreme Sovereign in the name of the Son as our ransomer and king, and in the name of the holy spirit as God's active force that helps us to do God's will do so in recognition of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit, so those extending hospitality to Jesus' brothers "because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward," which may be either heavenly life or earthly life, depending upon their calling.

Those showing hospitality to a prophet of God not only by receiving them in their homes, but by actively supporting the work that such prophets have been assigned to do by Jesus are a refreshment to Jesus' anointed brothers as would be "a cup of cold water," since the great crowd of "other sheep" aid mightily in the accomplishment of the worldwide preaching work still underway that Jesus' brothers are doing. Not just baptized servants of God, but even His unbaptized servants as well will be among those that "will receive a righteous man's reward."

@sabastious:

Wait wait, vs 42 is talking about people who act kindly to people of Christ. Correct?

@tec:

Yes, that's what I think.

@sabastious wrote:

And as a side note, vs 37 pissed me off... lol

@sabastious also wrote:

Family first, that's what I believe God put in my heart!

God didn't put this in your heart, and that is why you have need to deal with your unscriptural viewpoint as to which "family" or "friends" ought to be first in your life. (Matthew 12:48-50; Mark 3:33-35; Luke 8:21; John 15:14)

@sabastious wrote:

So let me get your point straight tec:

There are two ways to be "of Christ."

1. Accepting Christ as your Lord and saviour.

2. Helping or acting kindly to one of Christ's Disciples.

yes?

@tec wrote:

God first. But see, the thing is that if we put God first, then we follow his command, and his great command is that we love one another. But lets say our father/mother/brother/sister followed an evil or hurtful regime (such as the holocaust perhaps), maybe just out of fear or ignorance. As much as we might love our father, if we put Christ first (and so, God) WE won't follow in that path.

@sabastious wrote:

Tec, you took my family first statement too literally. If my family becomes dangerous they go by the wayside. Putting God first is what gives life to destructive behaviours.

How so?

@tec wrote:

Depending on the God you follow, then I agree with this. But I understand what you're saying about God and family, yes. I think you understand what I'm saying, too... we're just looking at it (on the surface )from a bit different angles.

Yes, and both "angles" are wrong.

@sabastious also wrote:

Let me rephrase: God and Family are equal because God is love and I love my family.

How so?

@tec wrote:

I'm not going to limit Him like that. I'm only saying that I think this means these people belong to him.

You asked @tec if one can be "of Christ" by --

1. Accepting Christ as your Lord and saviour.

-- and @tec did not respond to this portion of your question, although the answer to it is yes. But you also asked @tec if one can be "of Christ" by --

2. Helping or acting kindly to one of Christ's Disciples.

-- and @tec did not respond definitively to this portion of your question either, but responded as follows:

How really does one help or act kindly toward one of Jesus' disciples? By their doing the very things that Jesus commanded his disciples to do. (John 15:14) If you should be kind to those being kind to you, "of what credit is it to you?" Jesus asked at Luke 6:32. Why "even the sinners love those loving them." Jesus also asked at Luke 6:33: "And if you do good to those doing good to you, really of what credit is it to you? Even the sinners do the same." What exactly is the "good" that Christians ought to be doing toward others? Jesus said at Matthew 5:44 that Christians ought to "continue to love [their] enemies and to pray for those persecuting [them]." Why? That they might not perish and "accept the love of the truth that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

As to what @tec meant by 'putting Christ first (and so, God)' I leave for her to explain. for I found her statement these to be unintelligible as I also did the following:

And what about those who follow the love and mercy and forgiveness that he taught without ever having heard of him or being allowed to hear of him? Maybe they belong to him too - as shown by their deeds. Or maybe He will write their names in the book of life - after those who belong to him, who go through him to the father, are resurrected to be with him in spirit.

No one can come to the Father, absolutely no one, apart from their exercising faith in Jesus' ransom, for either one has heard the good news about the Christ or they have not heard it. Stop deluding yourself: "If anyone does not have Christ's spirit, this one does not belong to him." (Romans 8:9) There's no "maybe" in any of this. None of "the dead" will enter into life until the 1,000-year reign of the Millennial kingdom of God by Jesus Christ has ended, but absolutely none of those whose names finally come to be written in "the scroll of life" after Judgment Day will be resurrected to heavenly life since those who were raised as part of the first resurrection were raised as immortal spirit persons over whom "the second death has no authority." (Revelation 17:8; 20:5, 6)

While the names of those who have conquered will have already been written in "the book of life" due to their faithfulness to God, they must take care that their names should not be blotted out from this book. (Revelation 3:5)

[Revelation] does speak of two resurrections. One for those who belong to Him... (the firstfruits) who have no fear of judgment. And the second for those people who are judged according to their deeds. (in whatever, and however manner, this is)

The second resurrection will not be conducted in "whatever, and however manner," but will be for "both the righteous and the unrighteous," that is, those of the dead whose names came to be written in the book of life, from Abel to John the Baptist, and for faithful servants of God that also died before Judgment Day, as well as the unrighteous like the evildoer to whom Jesus made the resurrection promise (Acts 24:15; Luke 23:43) and like those of mankind that had never been given the opportunity to hear and act upon the good news. The righteous and the unrighteous will be the ones judged according to their deeds during Judgment Day. (Matthew 25:34, 46)

@sabastious wrote:

Why not just judge everyone according to their deeds?

@snowbird wrote:

Those who belong to Him are held to a different set of standards. Read Luke chapter 12 verrrrry carefully.

@tec wrote:

I think because there is NO judgment for those who belong to him, who believe in him and call on him, because they have crossed over from death to life. Christ is the resurrection and the life - and there is no second death or death at all, for those who are alive in spirit.

There is a judgment for some of those belonging to Jesus, for those that believe on him and call on Jehovah in Jesus' name. I put it this way because there seems to be some confusion in your mind as to whether the Bible teaches as to whether we should be calling on Jehovah or Jesus, when the Bible teaches that we ought to be calling on the name of Jehovah to be saved (Romans 10:13), but when we do, we must do so in Jesus' name. There is a death that those of the first resurrection must experience like Christ's, and as a consequence this permits them to attain to the earlier resurrection, the one in which those raised up will enjoy immortality in the heavens with Jesus, and so as they will be immortal, there would be no second death for those of the first resurrection. (Philippians 3:10, 11; Romans 6:5)

However, those who were once spiritually dead, but are exercising faith in him are the ones that have "passed over from death to life" in the sense that the condemnation of death has been lifted from them as they have the hope of everlasting life, but there remains a final test of the faith of those of the second resurrection at the conclusion of Judgment Day, for only after this test do these "come to life." (John 5:24, 25; 1 Peter 4:3-6; Revelation 20:5, 7, 8)

@notverylikely:

[Notably] that chapter says that Jesus is not an arbiter and to not worry. Is there something else you had in mind?

@snowbird wrote:

Question for you, what do you have against Revelation, and who are the nations mentioned here?

@sabastious wrote:

The Apocalypse of John is a book that has been used widely as a tool of control and fear-mongering long before you or I came into this world. It is not easily understood (and I suspect that was purposeful) and, in my experience, is a "go to book" for Bible Congruence arguments since it's imagery is so broad that it can used to tie up any argument one wants.

@sabastious also wrote:

The identity of the "nations" are relative to what [its] surrounding [scriptural] context is.

Before I can figure out what the "nations" are I first need to figure out:

1. Why God and a Lamb are a temple

2. What the "moon and the sun" are

3. What the "glory of God" is referring to

4. What the Lamb's lamp is

5. Who are the "kings of the earth"

If I can answer those questions, then I can tackle who the "nations" are.

@snowbird:

Aww ... no need to complicate things, Sabby. Throughout the Book, depending upon translation, Christ's followers are referred to as saints, servants, or slaves, never as nations. Soooo, nations are ???

@sabastious:

[You're] not going to tell me that "nations" ARE the nations of our world right?

@sabastious:

Cause then you would be committing a Witness like foul. Picking and [choosing] what is and isn't figurative in The Apocalypse of John.

@notverylikely:

The nation of Israel was often a follower of god and, since christ is the reflection of god, of christ too. Since Israel was a nation, were they not a follower or christ? or was christ not a reflection of god? Or does "nations" mean "Jews"?

@sabastious:

The "nations" could be referring to the Christians in world history because, when it's all said and done, Christians will be from every way of life and from every culture.

@sabastious:

Awfully convenient for people born in a nation full of Christians...

Just to be clear, the US is a nation full of secular Christians, there being entire households that, if asked, will profess to be Christians, but who, in reality, cannot articulate nor do they adhere to the teachings of their Christian denomination. These rarely attend church services, except for weddings and funerals, and are hardly in attendance at any particular church, since their only contact with Christianity comes through their parents or grandparents, so that they might know the names of a few of the congregants of the church at which their parents or grandparents attend or had once attended.

These children are essentially being raised in an secular lifestyle as non-practicing Christians -- pseudo-Christians like their parents -- in accordance with what they believe to be Christian values (e.g., the celebration of mainstream Christianity's two major holidays, Christmas and Easter), but it's clear that these children, like their parents, are not true Christians, for they believe "the Father," whose name is Jehovah, to be a "Person" of God and insignificant, for they believe "the Son," whose name is Jesus Christ," to be a more significant "Person" of God than "the Father," so that calling upon the name of the Son for salvation supplants that of anyone calling upon the name of the Father to be saved, thus rendering scriptures like John 14:6 and Romans 10:13 meaningless.

Although God dealt primarily with one nation after His entering into a covenant with Abraham that provided a blessing to all of the nations of the earth by means of Abraham's seed, which seed came to be born from one of the sons of Abraham's grandson, Jacob/Israel, those peoples from whom Jehovah had separated the nation of Israel by means of the Law of Moses came to bless themselves by means of the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was Abraham's seed, born of the tribe of Judah, Abraham's great-grandson, and it is these "peoples" of the uncircumcised Gentile "nations," along with a Jewish remnant that had accepted Jesus as God's messiah, that became secondary members of Abraham's seed and members of a new spiritual nation, the Israel of God. (Galatians 3:16; 26-29; 6:16; Romans 11:11-13, 24-26) You might want to compare Isaiah 2:3 with Micah 4:2, @sabastious, to note that "peoples" is used synonymously with "nations" when referring to those who these prophets both foretold would learn Jehovah's ways and walk in His paths.)

Now regarding the passage at Revelation 21:21-27, to which @snowbird referred, I would point out to you that although we might spiritually "see" or discern God as being seated on His throne in His Great Spiritual Temple, the reality is that Christians are already in God's temple if they are wearing those white robes that the apostle John sees that unnumbered "great crowd," who are standing before the throne and before the Lamb praising both Jehovah God and the Lamb for their salvation at Revelation 7:9, 10, for Revelation 7:15 states that God Himself has spread His tent, His tabernacle, His spiritual temple, over them. Jehovah's spiritual temple has, in fact, a spiritual realm and an earthly realm, and those of the "great crowd" have been brought into the earthly realm of God's temple.

This spiritual temple actually came into existence at Jesus' baptism in 29 AD when he was anointed by Jehovah as High Priest, and all of those of Jesus' followers of the anointed priestly class are themselves part of the New Jerusalem, so that Jehovah is personally accessible to each of these anointed priests. In heaven, Jehovah's own glory keeps New Jerusalem eternally bright, so that the "sun," "the moon" nor any other heavenly body is needed, for as Isaiah prophesied at Isaiah 60:20, "Jehovah himself will become for you an indefinitely lasting light."

Those of the anointed that comprise New Jerusalem and who render sacred service to God in heaven are able to render direct worship to Him without any need for any representative temple, they doing so under their high priest, Jesus Christ, who shares with Jehovah God in being, in effect, the temple of the New Jerusalem, these 144,000 anointed underpriests constituting the city of the living God. That is why we read about the anointed underpriests of the Lamb at 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17: "Do you not know that you people are God’s temple... For the temple of God is holy, which temple you people are."

The "glory of God" is the knowledge of God, and the "Lamb's lamp," which reflected God's glory, is the light of truth that was shone on these anointed underpriests and which glorified or radiated the city of New Jerusalem. These "nations" are those of the "great crowd" as well as the resurrected dead and "the kings of the earth" that bring their glory into the temple are the 144,000 anointed underpriests that "will rule as kings forever and ever." (Revelation 22:3) I trust that I've covered all of your questions, that I didn't overlook any of them.

@tec:

Perhaps... but do remember that those who belong to Christ are those who serve others in love and truth; who are not raised above their fellow man and lord it over their heads... mind you, there are also very many 'Christians' who are not sincere in their living by the teachings of Christ, or that even have the love of Christ in their hearts. What did Jesus think of such hypocrites in his day, again?

@sabastious:

So men and women "of Christ" deserve special treatment.

@ tec:

Sorry, Sab... I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

@snowbird:

Tee hee hee. Nations are nations. Any other suggestions?

@sabastious:

Ok, then the Lamb is actually a baby sheep and it wrote a REALLY big book the size of a house with all people's names in it that are going to live.

@notverylikely:

I think we are asking. Who are they?

@snowbird:

Notably verses 47 and 48 of Luke 12: To whom is given more, more will be asked back.

Sab, now you're acting all Watchtowerish. By your reasoning, the 7 [congregations] aren't really congregations. Common sense can be most helpful at times, you know.

@sabastious:

I think NVL's question is very much along the lines of common sense. My common sense in me tells me you haven't answered his question. Who are the nations?

@snowbird:

I believe the nations are those 3/4 of whom you were most concerned in your opening post. ALL the families of the earth who are to bless themselves by means of Abraham's Seed. Hallelujah!

@sabastious:

See, this is why I asked you not to use [Revelation] to answer my question...

I specifically asked for proof that Jesus was not condemning all non-christians when he spoke to his disciples in John 14:6.

So far I have heard that if you are nice to Christians you'll be ok, and a vague answer about "nations" in The Apocalypse of John which is an interpretation of a figurative vision. Correct?

@snowbird:

Christ's followers are called slaves - ever knew a slave who received special treatment?

@sabastious:

People of Christ:

tec: there is NO judgment for those who belong to him... & ...those who belong to Christ are those who serve others in love and truth

People not of Christ:

tec: And the second for those people who are judged according to their deeds.

So people of Christ get no judgement because they accepted Christ and served others in his name, therefore getting a special title (firstfruits) and are treated differently. Correct?

@tec:

Perhaps. But [it's] the treated differently that is bothering me. Also, it would seem by this sentence that they earned their place by works... but I don't believe that to be the case. Their faith in Christ gave them life, in Christ. This came first. Their works are a natural result of the faith and love they have for Christ. I think the works (serving others in love) and the 'life' (therefore no fear of judgment or second death), come as both a gift and a natural result of their faith and love in Christ.

I don't think those who come later are treated as less. I think they just come later, and then are accepted into the fold to be one with the others already there. (I'm still thinking on this a bit, so please bear with me)

I don't know and cannot know what it is that is bothering you, but all of this guessing, speculating and putting your own exegesis on what things you read in the Bible ought to bother you since none of it is in accord with your having an accurate knowledge of what things the Bible teaches. Who are these "people of Christ"? I don't know, but I do know who the people of God, and they are those that worship the true God, Jehovah, and are the ones following the example of their redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ in being doers of the word and not just hearers only. (James 1:22) Those folks belonging to Christ are those Christians that are obediently doing the work that Jesus gave his followers to do, especially at this time during the manifestation of Jesus' invisible presence, and that is the proclaiming the good news of the established heavenly kingdom of God. (Matthew 28:19, 20)

@sabastious:

Tammy, I have to tip my hat to you. You really are a thinker and go at the Bible with a fairly open mind. I really admire this. I think you have become the first Christian I actually like.

@tec:

I missed that, Sab... thank you. I feel a little embarrassed, mind you, because I am not the only person who thinks and goes at the Bible with a fairly open mind, not even on this board, but thank you just the same. That you can see a person and their faith beyond the religion (whether you agree with them or not) speaks volumes about your open mind/heart as well.

Sorry, but I just have to add that you really brightened my day. People like you give me great hope for us all :)

As I was reading many of the posts in this thread, I sensed a fear of the future and of what is coming, a fear that the life you are living (not you personally, but of all of you that have left Jehovah and think by means of the Scriptures you will have life) is not approved by God, and maybe one or two of you here actually do not want to perish at Armageddon, and actually do want to do God's will, but keep putting it off, and actually do want God's approval and actually do want to live forever in a paradise earth, but feel themselves slipping further and further away from realizing such a prospect. This thread went off the rails at page 8, so I decided to post this lengthy reply, one that I've been writing for over a week, today.

If one is not obediently engaged in doing this very important, life-saving work, then he or she is not and cannot do more than claim to be a Christian. Doing good deeds or engaging in any humanitarian expression toward other people, toward strangers and the like, may be commendable among men, but has no absolutely merit with God. The only thing that has merit with God is one's putting faith in the ransom sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, for forgiveness of sins, which is God's sole provision for salvation. Not the giving of oneself in connection with causes that have value in the eyes of human beings, but in loving one's neighbor as oneself in telling them how they might save their souls at the revelation of Jesus Christ at the climax of the coming great tribulation. Giving someone in need something to eat or something to wear, offering to run a errand for someone that might be elderly or infirm, or to maybe wash the car of a dialysis patient or someone that suffers from some debilitating disease are commendable from a human standpoint, but to God those engaging in just these things to the exclusion of the life-saving work His son has commanded be done at this time, even if they should feel motivated by what they think Christ would want them to be doing, makes all such persons "workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:23)

I gotta tell you and I won't lie to you: What you see as a "great hope" is only a mirage, for as John 14:6 states, no one can come the Father, no one can become reconciled with Him, except by means of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, for Jesus is not just the way and the truth, but the life, and there is no hope for you or for anyone that disregards his commands or those of his Father. If one knows how to do what is right, but stubbornly to do it, it is a sin for him. (James 4:17) If you don't believe that Jesus was God's representative, that he is God's Messiah, and that all judging was committed to him by Jehovah -- your judgment and mine -- then you and those like you are going to positively die in your sins. (John 8:24; 5:22)

There's no time for seeking validation from others that would twist and distort God's word beyond recognition so that you might be their disciple and not Christ's. These clearly do not know the truth, but I do, and you have just heard it spoken. Please return to Jehovah before it is too late; search for Him while he may yet be found. (Isaiah 55:6) As David told his son, Solomon, I say to you: If you search for Jehovah, he'll let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he'll cast you off forever. (1 Chronicles 28:9)

@djeggnog

Christians: Do you believe Jesus is the only way?

THE GLADIATOR

snowbird

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tec

THE GLADIATOR

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