by sabastious 209 Replies latest jw friends
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Yum eggnog. It's almost that time of the year. I need some Khalua and ice...
Ok, DJ, I read most of the parts that dealt with things I said personally.
I'll keep my reply brieif.
You use the Bible A LOT in your refutations, in fact, the Bible is your ONLY reference (whenever you feel like giving a reference for your assertions).
I don't believe the Bible is God's word, and if you are curious to why, it's spelled out nicely in Thomas Paine's Age of Reason essay.
I wanted to touch a little on what you said about my view of DF'ing.
I think it's presumptuous to say "I don't believe in discipline" because I think DF'ing is unloving. It's a blanket assertion with no grounds at all.
I believe in discipline, just not in the form of shunning. I also believe that I have the RIGHT to treat people how I SEE FIT. No one can tell me how I should treat other people, God has already gave me the tools needed to make those decisions.
Observing DF'ing (within the congregation) is compulsory, because you will be disciplined if you associate with a DF'ed member. That's corruption in my book. How could an organization get to this point? How could they feel the need to impose such regulations on "approved association" of the group?
It's sick.
We'll agree to disagree at this point. You believe the Bible is the Word of God, I think it's paper and ink.
But not to ditract from paper and ink, many profound things have been borne from such a source.
Oh and one last thing. Editing people's comments and adding in brackets is seriously weird.
-Sab
There's no time for seeking validation from others that would twist and distort God's word beyond recognition so that you might be their disciple and not Christ's. These clearly do not know the truth, but I do, and you have just heard it spoken. Please return to Jehovah before it is too late; search for Him while he may yet be found. (Isaiah 55:6) As David told his son, Solomon, I say to you: If you search for Jehovah, he'll let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he'll cast you off forever. (1 Chronicles 28:9)
^ The bold is your expose DJ.
You are here to glorify yourself. The Watchtower dogma is your medium for this self-glorification agenda.
You REALLY like your voice. You REALLY like the way you "break things down" and teach others.
You are just a man.
You are 1 of 7 billion. Start playing your part, as a humble inhabitant of this planet.
We are in this together. No one person should lord over another.
Whether you feel the need to put yourself and your message on a figurative pedestal or not, is moot in the scheme of True Human Progression.
-Sab
He was on his way, but he recently got high speed internet and discovered online porn. Might be awhile, until he comes to the end of porn available online. He will have a strong right arm for killing though, to smite down all the sinners.
@sabastious:
That's [creepy] djeggnog, I'm not trying to bash you. Just saying how I feel about that "great wall of china" wall of text. I cannot believe you responded to all that.
But I did respond and not just to you or for your benefit. I responded in such a way that anyone reading my response will realize that I was speaking directly to them as I sought to "trap" every absurd and zany idea that was being proffered by the false prophets here and expose them for what they were.
I'm going to *attempt* to read it.
Be my guest. You are a courageous man. BTW, this "wall" was designed primarily for those lurking this thread, because I didn't believe I could reach anyone that may have contributed to this thread using reason, who have decided to take their chances with Jesus and his angels at his revelation. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
Ok, DJ, I read most of the parts that dealt with things I said personally. I'll keep my reply [brief].
Ok.
You use the Bible A LOT in your refutations, in fact, the Bible is your ONLY reference (whenever you feel like giving a reference for your assertions).
You're right; I do. I'm an ordained Christian minister. It's interesting to me, too, that many of the ex-Jehovah's Witnesses here use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures even as I do although they, unlike me, claim to have rejected Jehovah God, and Jehovah's Witnesses, while claiming not to have rejected Jesus, which is ridiculous in view of the fact that Jehovah is the landlord while Jesus is the manager, the man-in-charge. I use the NWT because it's a very good literal English-language Bible, and because I believe what it has to say is important.
I don't believe the Bible is God's word, and if you are curious to why, it's spelled out nicely in Thomas Paine's Age of Reason essay.
Ok, and no, I'm not curious to know why it is you don't believe the Bible to be God's word. I read in my Bible (at 2 Thessalonians 3:2) that "faith is not a possession of all people." I'm not sure that Thomas Paine doesn't agree with this quote from the Bible though. I suppose he might not agree.
I wanted to touch a little on what you said about my view of DF'ing. I think it's presumptuous to say "I don't believe in discipline" because I think DF'ing is unloving. It's a blanket assertion with no grounds at all.
Ok.
I believe in discipline, just not in the form of shunning. I also believe that I have the RIGHT to treat people how I SEE FIT. No one can tell me how I should treat other people, God has already gave me the tools needed to make those decisions.
Ok.
Observing DF'ing (within the congregation) is compulsory, because you will be disciplined if you associate with a DF'ed member. That's corruption in my book. How could an organization get to this point? How could they feel the need to impose such regulations on "approved association" of the group? It's sick.
I think you should grow up and realize that people can set up an organization in any way they wish and run it as they wish with whatever number of rules they wish, and if anyone should not wish to join that organization and abide by its rules, absolutely no one is twisting their arm to join it (where the act of joining carries the implication that they are ok with its rules!), and, if they should join that organization, no one is forcing them to return week after week if they do not wish to do so. If an organization's rules seem "sick" to you, then you are free to decide not to join that particular organization and you shouldn't do so.
I don't have a problem with your not joining this organization or with your having joined it and leaving it after a time when you realized the shunning part of disfellowshipping to be a "sick" practice, and neither would anyone else, and you are probably one of those (I'm just going to tell you a hypothetical story here) that would likely think it unfair it someone charismatic in your local congregation and a seeming totally nice individual, who seems to you and others to be well spoken of and really a great guy as far as you and others are concerned (would even loan you his car or a couple of dollars when you need it if he has it to spare!), someone who is clearly very knowledgeable about the Bible and has excellent oratory skills, and all of that, but who cannot seem to get a recommendation to the CO for him to serve as a MS, let alone as an elder, from any of the local elders, and one year, two years turn into five years, ten years, and this guy you like so much cannot seem to get any love from the elders.
And now there's kind of a movement underfoot in the local congregation about how envious the elders are as to this guy's speaking skills and deep knowledge of the Bible as against the entire body of elders combined, all which makes you leave your place in the local congregation and begin murmuring to others over your perception of the unfairness of the elders causing a groundswell of anti-elders sentiment to be generation, and you are admonished against what you're doing, but you won't stop it, because, in your opinion, you're in the right and the elders are in the wrong, and now you've been publicly reproved by a judicial committee, but you don't care because you're right and the elders are wrong, and now you've been disfellowshipped and everyone is now shunning you, and all because you left your place to assert your opinions about the treatment of this charismatic man in the congregation being overlooked by the elders.
I'm not providing details, not giving you the name of the congregation, the city or the state (this is all hypothetical, you see), but some 15 years ago this charismatic man that came to your congregation ten years ago had a sickness that led to his confessing to his fondling, groping and doing much than this involving some 17 children under the age of 12 and spending five years of his life in prison. Can you imagine a registered sex offender being an elder or a MS? I can't, but can you? What about ten years from now? What do you think? I'll tell you what I think: I think what those of us who are mature and responsible for the spiritual lives of those placed in our care by Jehovah God: Not hardly. Not in this system of things.
One other question I want to ask you: What if I were to tell you that 15 years ago this man that got you disfellowshipped over his charisma and all of that was the PO of his local congregation? Do you think your causing that groundswell in the congregation over your perception of unfairness and villification of the local body of elders based on what you imagined to have been the case so that you cannot really have conversations with anyone but the elders while you are in a disapproved state was worth your disfellowshipment? For this charismatic guy? He's a brother "in good standing," but I refer to him as a "guy." Why? I don't know: 17 children under the age of 12. Maybe there's a problem with me. Maybe I should get over it. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. What do you think now about the rules of Jehovah's organization? The rules of my organization? Too strict? Too severe?
The word I believe you used here was "sick," right? It's our rules. You don't like 'em, get out. We're ok if you decide to leave. The goal is to protect the congregation from unwholesome influences, but if it is not your wish to receive such protection from the elders? You free to separate yourself from the congregation and leave, but remember no one has asked you to leave or even wants you to leave. Leaving would be your choice, but folks that know more than they can possibly really know are stupid, and it isn't possible to reason with stupid people. That's why Jehovah's Witnesses tend to beg off and go on to the next door when we recognize those kinds of people. There is hope for the ignorant person, but the stupid person only wastes time. He is typically the one that says, "There is no Jehovah" and "I don't believe the Bible is God's word."
Oh, wait! Did I just call you "stupid"? I don't believe so, since I said that this it is "typically" the case, but you tell me.
If anyone wishes to die in this world, we're not going to stand in their way. But Jehovah's will is that we kindly encourage them to -- not try to make them -- come back, because we take His viewpoint: He doesn't "desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) When one is disfellowshipped, you have to know that your faith is being tested, and if anyone should not be aware of this, that ignorance as to the fact that their faith is being tested disappears once they begin to realize that they are thinking things like: "Why am I putting up with this treatment? I don't have to put up with people shunning me, not wishing to speak to me, walking right past me without greeting me whenever I know they can see me when they're treating me as if I'm invisible. I'm done with coming to these meetings and being treated as if I don't matter."
"So what exactly is being tested?" you ask. Being disfellowshipped can be a severe hardship. You cannot discuss very much, if anything, with your own family members, who seem to not want to spend very much time with you, because it's awkward for them trying to treat you as they normally would when they know you're in a disfellowshipped state. Why they cannot have certain people over when they know you are going to be there because their visit will be an awkward one with you also being there. You think it's hard for you, but it's hard for everyone in the family when a family member is disfellowshipped. You see, it's not all about you at all.
But, still, when someone has been disfellowshipped in the family, it's not unlike some physical illness has struck them, except this illness is a spiritual one. For some folks, poor health is a trial they must face at least once every month, once every week, some almost every other day, some every day, but they don't necessarily say: "Why am I doing what these doctors are telling me to do? The doctors can't cure me, and, quite frankly, I'm sick of being sick all of the time, and I'm tired of having to take this pill in the morning and that pill in the evening. I'm done with this business of being sick all of the time and I'm going to end it." Again, I said, they don't necessarily say this. Being sick can be a severe hardship, but they let the trial run its course and through their endurance of the trial, they learn to manage their illness and are the better for it.
Likewise, when one is in a disfellowshipped state, the quality of one's faith is being tested, but it is the "tested quality of your faith [that] works out endurance." (James 1:3) When James wrote these words, there were Christians attending meetings for show. There were those that engaged in a lot of gossipping and backbiting about others in the congregation, some were giving preference to the more affluent in the congregation as deference was being accorded to class distinctions (James 1:26, 27; 2:1-9) James had to tell those Christians that their faith was dead if it wasn't accompanied by godly works. (James 2:13-18, 26) So what kind of faith did those who were fed up with the way in which they were being treated by some in the congregation have? Was it genuine or just a pretentious faith? Do we experience a trial and then blame Jehovah for the problems that we face that have arisen because of the trial? If one endures the adjustments that comes with being disfellowshipped for our attitude or our conduct, one learns to accept the hardship that is a part of the trial and one's faith becomes stronger than it had been before because endurance strengthens our faith. It's having the wrong attitude toward the discipline that Jehovah gives that weakens our faith.
We'll agree to disagree at this point. You believe the Bible is the Word of God, I think it's paper and ink. But not to [detract] from paper and ink, many profound things have been borne from such a source.
What "profound things" exactly do you have in mind, if you don't mind my asking?
Oh and one last thing. Editing people's comments and adding in brackets is seriously weird.
If the correction of typos to make a statement more readable comes off as weird to you, then I don't suppose you'll ever be guilty of doing this, and I'm totally fine with that. You could, of course, view such as instances of my pointing out to you which words, if any, you may have difficulty spelling correctly or a typo that you may not have intended to make. Whatever.
@djeggnog
I think you should grow up and realize that people can set up an organization in any way they wish and run it as they wish with whatever number of rules they wish, and if anyone should not wish to join that organization and abide by its rules, absolutely no one is twisting their arm to join it (where the act of joining carries the implication that they are ok with its rules!), and, if they should join that organization, no one is forcing them to return week after week if they do not wish to do so. If an organization's rules seem "sick" to you, then you are free to decide not to join that particular organization and you shouldn't do so.
My arm was twisted for 18 years, I was born in.
-Sab
What "profound things" exactly do you have in mind, if you don't mind my asking?
I do mind.
-Sab
If the correction of typos to make a statement more readable comes off as weird to you, then I don't suppose you'll ever be guilty of doing this, and I'm totally fine with that. You could, of course, view such as instances of my pointing out to you which words, if any, you may have difficulty spelling correctly or a typo that you may not have intended to make. Whatever.
I have NEVER seen someone quote people and EDIT their quotes...
Seriously weird dude.
-Sab
Be my guest. You are a courageous man. BTW, this "wall" was designed primarily for those lurking this thread, because I didn't believe I could reach anyone that may have contributed to this thread using reason, who have decided to take their chances with Jesus and his angels at his revelation. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
Funny, because I feel your text will help more people see the WT for the pretentious religious bigots they are. You are a perfect slice of the WT pie. I could not describe the extent WT members and leaders go to glorify their flawed message. You have done so wonderfully.
So there you go lurkers. It's on the table, make an informed decision.
-Sab
