Okay Bible Supporters: Support this One

by FreePeace 36 Replies latest jw friends

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  You Know

  Jehovah doesn't want to see anyone destroyed. He makes that pretty plain. But when it comes to war, and that's where we are heading, someone's going to get hurt. That's just the rules of the game. During wars people get killed. But Jehovah has given ample warning. Apostates are especially reprehensible because you know the Scriptures. So I ain't gonna shed any tears for you. I pity the poor souls who don't know which end of the Bible is up. / You Know
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  Budda Belly

  You Know..

  Is it safe to say the Bible
  is "up" your ass?
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  DanielHaase

  To get back to Abraham and Isaac, many old teachings in Judaism explain that Abraham not sacrificing Isaac was a revolution against the common pagan tradition of that time to sacrifice your first-born son. Not sure I really believe this. The simple truth is that the bible is a historical book reflective of the culture of those times. It was written by many men, not a supreme creator. Those truly followed the bible would end up in prison in this progressive society.
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  Julie

  :The simple truth is that the bible is a historical book reflective of the culture of those times. It was written by many men, not a supreme creator.

  Se that is exactly the thing. It is merely a chronicle of the times, written by various folks with their own unique perspectives. It is much like the chroincles I read for my history studies. Some are more reliable than others, you have to keep biases in mind as well as a agendas. Fortunately for me I study a time period and place where they kept very good government records so I can easily check these opinionated chronicles against them. Too bad not as much documented factual info. is available from bible times. If we put all these same resources into something useful (charity, disease cures etc.) think how much further ahead we would be.

  Julie, who thinks working for the Greater Good is a far greater cause than some mislead soul spending their whole life striving for immortality with the vicious, unjust biblegod
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  indireneed

  This kind of question always pissed me off when I was being indoctrinated in a very religious, very strict, very Protestant primary school. Such a loving God was so inspiring of fear and self-hatred.

  My sister-in-law brought up a pretty good point about the Bible - old and new testament. In order to fully identify with the ideals and concepts held within its pages, it is necesarry to divorce oneself from modern society and adopt a very anitquated concept of good and evil.

  For example, the paradise that so many JWs are looking forward to is a rural person's paradise - it is not what a modern thinking person would consider paradise. Does everyone want to be a farmer? Does everone want to live near Jersulam (I shiver at the thought . . .) The fact is, this is a world without government, without roads, without technology, without division of labor. Thus, in order for there to be roads, etc. Jesus would have to intervene since each person will be tending to his own needs.

  Anyway, in order to understand the Old Testament, one cannot look at the good/evil context that we see today. It was not evil to destroy people and rape their wives - this was normal. But today, we like to think we are more civilized. I like to think that too. That's why I can't always make excusese for what the merciful god did of the Bible.

  If the Bible is truly a 'timeless' book, why do we need to make up excuses? Why do we have to explain to ourselves why god would kill tens of thousands of people simply for existing in their ignorance? Of course, that's what JWs look forward to everyday. I can't wait till god's mercy is shown so explicitly . . .

  Oh well. If they want to live in the past, I guess it's their prerogrative. They should start their farm life soon though - maybe they should merge with the Amish.
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  outnfree

  First, FreePeace,

  Thank you for a very thought-provoking post. It seems a Deist is what I am evolving into, but I have more to ponder.

  Secondly, in response to
  >>Paine advocated Deism as a better alternative than the Bible. Deism teaches that there is one God, who created the universe, but does not intervene in man's affairs.

  UnclePenn wrote:

  Kind of like an absentee Father. What a nice God. Creates us and then doesnt care if there are children molested or innocent people slaughtered. Just has other things to do besides caring about right and wrong. Sounds like an ugly God to me.

  Sounds to me like an absentee father is preferable to a God who doesn’t care if there are children molested or innocent people slaughtered or raped or tortured or suffering in myriad other ways from the abuse heaped upon them by fellow humans. The god described in the Bible DOES sound ugly in many accounts. Ugly and willing to commit crimes that are sometimes sins for his followers, sometimes not.

  YouKnow makes the point:
  

  In the case of God's people, wether[sic] the ancient Jews or Jehovah's modern-day children, it is certainly in keeping with God's position as family head to destroy those who threaten the well being of his loyal ones.

  I cannot imagine a family head today destroying his/her children by ANNIHILATING them even should one or some of those children threaten the well being of other family members.
  If we are made in God’s image [as YouKnow points out when he tries to explain why murder of human by human is attempted theocide] then, God, too, would/should have the same capacity for compassion as we lowly humans. If a father knew his child had murdered another of his children, MOST human fathers would want to prevent the murderer from harming anyone else.
  But the father would NOT want the murderer murdered also. Deeply saddened, he would want to help the murderer to understand why the murder was wrong and to understand why remorse would now be a proper response to the heinous crime. When God Himself, described as LOVE, destroys “those who threaten the well being of his loyal ones” by making those loyal ones the murder weapons and guilty of theocide themselves, where is the sense in that?!? Better “an absentee Father” and to blame wickedness on the actual wicked ones.

  YouKnow callously opines:

  Those who died at God’s command would have eventually died anyway. So from Jehovah’s standpoint it is not too terribly important whether someone lives a few ticks more or less.

  Perhaps it is true that “from Jehovah’s standpoint it is not too terribly important” but for those who had to carry OUT God’s command, the effects were likely emotionally devastating and long-lasting. Lately we could not even actually SEE the carnage of the thousands killed in the World Trade Center disaster, yet those Israelites DID SEE the carnage Jehovah’s command wrought – up close and waaaaaay too personal. Imagine those images! Imagine the recurring nightmares! Post-traumatic stress disorder anyone???!!! Jehovah knows how we are made. Why would he put his “loyal ones” through such trauma?

  In response to FreePeace’s comment about Deism:
  >>It also teaches that one be kind to their fellow human being, just as God has shown kindness and love to all creation.

  UnclePenn responded:

  Showing love to them by abandoning them? People dying of disease and wasting away from starvation. Thanks God!

  How IS Almighty God showing love when people are dying of disease and wasting away from starvation? Good question, UnclePenn!

  I think what FreePeace (Paine?) meant was that God created everything so that it inherently knew what it needed for survival, kindly giving each organism great coping skills to overcome any adverse conditions in its environment. This does not always work – natural selection and catacylismic events in nature have sometimes resulted in the extinction of certain organismsm, including human beings. So where IS God when these things happen, UnclePenn?

  I honestly would like to know. I sometimes feel that God has helped me in my life – even lately, when I’m not sure Who or What God it is that I’m praying to – mostly out of habit.
  IS Someone listening? DOES God listen to those who pray without real faith? (I believe the Bible says no.) So is the way things worked out actual intervention on God’s part or rather just what would have happened anyway with or without my turning to God by rote?

  YouKnow makes the point that:

  In the Hebrew Law, if a person falsely accused another of a capital crime, or if anyone tried to seduce an Israelite into worshipping false gods, which was of course also a capital crime, and he was found out, then the punishment that would have been meted out to the falsely accused or the one misled was instead meted out to the accuser. So, in the case where the entire nation of Median[sic] participated in a plot to seduce the Israelites so as to bring upon them Jehovah’s curse, it is entirely in keeping with Jehovah’s perfect justice that the perpetrators also suffer the penalty prescribed under Jewish Law

  for intended murder.[bold mine]Why would it be “Jehovah’s perfect justice” to execute the Midianites, who were a separate nation, under the laws of the Jewish nation?

  If a person today violates a law of which s/he is unaware, I understand that s/he may still be liable for prosecution under the laws of the land. However, here we are speaking about the Perfect, OMNISCIENT God, Jehovah, who was well aware that He had not given the Midianites the Law code He had bestowed upon the Israelites. So how can His actions be defended? (And if ONE respondent hands me that “It is not up to us to understand God’s mysterious ways nor to question the wisdom of the God of the Universe” I will be sorely disappointed and, likely, quite nauseous. )

  I am honestly wanting to know how those whose faith in the Bible as the true and inspired Word of God justify such things to themselves, deep inside. Please help me to understand.

  outnfree

  It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden
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  singsongboi

  hey! i was going to post something on the theme....

  but then i started thinking - this is like a bad dream!!

  all this argumentation - this way, that way!!!

  cheeeeeeeeee!!!!!