This is sickening and disturbing to think that American soldiers did this.

by StoneWall 57 Replies latest social current

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  StoneWall

  Farkel said:

  stonewall,

  Are you stupid, or somthin'?

  Farkel

  No are you?

  Care to elaborate on what you mean there?
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  sooner7nc

  Don't pay any attention to him Stonewall. His head is stuck so far up his ass that he has trouble forming thoughts that are much more complex than "Are you stupid or somthin?"
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  Mad Sweeney

  Being a trained killer and maintaining a respect for life and dignity of others is perhaps the most demanding task a human can be asked to undertake. Any decent sociology class will teach you that groups of men devolve into depravity if not checked by some other outside force.

  That isn't justification. But that's the tendency.

  Knowing this, the responsibility is on the armed forces to keep the men in line.
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  Farkel

  Stonewall,

  :Care to elaborate on what you mean there?

  Read Mad Sweeney's comment, and maybe you'll understand why I said what I said. My best friend of my life was not a JW, but we grew up together and remained best friends into adulthood. While I was pioneering, he enrolled in college but dropped out after the first year and enlisted into the Army. He was immediately sent to Vietnam as a grunt and did a one year tour. Years later, he told me about his experiences, and even said he committed war crimes. He said he later couldn't even believe he had done such things. Steve was the most gentle person one could ever know. I knew him better than anyone else. He never got into physical fights and never got into trouble. He was an artist and a musician and a dreamer and a philosopher. He told me his experiences in Vietnam really messed him up. He said this to me in 1975, some 8 years after he served in the Army.

  He was working on his PhD. when I went to visit my family in the same State where he lived. I called his parents and asked how I could get a hold of him. He dad said, "I guess you didn't hear. Steve shot himself in the head 3 months ago. He was teaching a class at the University and told his students he had to leave for a half-hour and would be back after that. He went downstairs into his apartment and shot himself.

  I'm absolutely convinced Steve did that because of what he experienced in Vietnam.

  I've talked to many soldiers who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and get pretty much the same story from them all. They say the situation is much worse than what we hear about in the USA. Like Vietnam, it is not a war where the soldiers wear uniforms and march against you. EVERYONE, including toddlers could be the enemy and blow you to hell before you know it.

  Given that information, why are you so "shocked" that a few soldiers went off the deep end and did horrible things? These things happen in all wars.

  You must be very young and lived your life without being around people freshly back from a real war, or you would have understood why some soldiers do those things. I'm not excusing their actions, but I think I do understand why some of them could do things they otherwise probably wouldn't do.

  That's why I said what I said. It was a take-off on a line from the movie Forrest Gump, and intended to get your attention. I guess it did.

  sooner7nc,

  :Don't pay any attention to him Stonewall. His head is stuck so far up his ass that he has trouble forming thoughts that are much more complex than "Are you stupid or somthin?"

  Yeah. You're right. I should have said something brilliant like you just did. I am in awe of your obviously superior intelligence, ability to form complex thoughts and arguments and articulate them so well. Where do you recommend I go to learn to be as smart as you?

  Oh, by the way, I was looking for your body of brilliant works in this site's "Best of" section, but for some strange reason, I couldn't find it. Could you perhaps direct me to it? A relatively small portion of posters get the privilege of having their works in there, and since you obviously are so smart, I'm sure you're one of them, aren't you?

  Farkel
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  cognizant dissident

  Farkel your friends story was very heart wrenching. I think we are irreparably changed in some fundamental way when we kill another human being. We can't just pick up our old lives and go about our business as if nothing happened. Haunted, is the word that comes to mind.
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  StoneWall

  Farkel said:

  You must be very young and lived your life without being around people freshly back from a real war, or you would have understood why some soldiers do those things. I'm not excusing their actions, but I think I do understand why some of them could do things they otherwise probably wouldn't do.

  It all depends on what you consider young. I'm in my mid 40's and got a son in his early 20's.

  And as far as the being around people in the war, I was raised a JW from birth by my mother but my dad was not a witness and fought in WW2 in the invasion of Normandy. He was an anti-aircraft gunner and shot down many planes. Had numerous medals awarded to him including the Bronze Star. If you're not sure what it's for do a google on it and it will show you. Not just anyone gets that one.

  But one thing my dad always told me is that everytime he had to shoot down a enemy plane, he always said a prayer for them in hopes of them parachuting out to safety. He wanted to stop them. Not necessarily kill them. He saw where a few others commited war crimes by shooting a few of the germans that parachuted out while they were dangling in the air. He said to me that he could never do that to anyone that is not in a position to defend themself. That made me love my father more than anything else by knowing he still had compassion, even for the enemy.

  As of right now I got one nephew and two cousins in active duty in Afghanistan. My nephew already did his tour in Iraq a while back and now is in the midst of the worst fighting in Afghanistan. I got one friend same age as me that I went to high school with and he served in the first war in Iraq when Bush senior was President. I talk to him on the phone and he is not the same great guy he was in H.S. He has to take all kinds of anti-depressants. Suffers from PTSD. So I think I've been around my share of people that have been in a "real war" as you call it.

  In your post above you told me to read mad Sweeney's comment and i might understand. Now I invite you to look back over Mad's comment and see how he ended it. Here's the quote:

  Knowing this, the responsibility is on the armed forces to keep the men in line.

  That is exactly what I'm talking about. Someone dropped the ball on this and wasn't watching or paying attention to the men under their command.

  It's no different than good cop, bad cop. We expect cops to do their job and protect us. But sometimes someone has to protect the public from idiots that get in there and give the cops a bad name.
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  Mad Sweeney

  It's a real problem that goes mostly under the radar and is further obfuscated by a heavy dose of denial.

  Recruiting is hard enough without the entire public knowing that by signing up there's a strong chance that if you manage to survive combat you're still going to lose your mind. They don't want people to know the mental trauma soldiers go through and their recruiting targets young men who are likely to reinforce the denial. The armed forces just love the tough-guy kids who in sports "play through the pain" or when sick refuse to go to the doctor. Those kids aren't going to seek out a counselor because they have conscientious emotional issues.

  And so the problem remains mostly hidden. The educated are aware of it (and that is why they don't send their kids into the military unless they're going to be officers) but the public remains mostly unaware. The media doesn't seem to care about the issue and when a film comes out that portrays the situation it is viewed as an abberration, not the norm. But the truth is that A LOT of soldiers have stuff going on inside that they should be getting help with.

  If those of us who escaped the Borg need counseling, and I submit that we do, then how much more so men who were trained to kill while being expected to remain civil and return to civilian society as if nothing happened?
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  Mary

  cognizant dissident said: I think we are irreparably changed in some fundamental way when we kill another human being. We can't just pick up our old lives and go about our business as if nothing happened.

  Very true. One of the reasons the Jews ended up being sent to the gas chambers and ovens is that some of German soldiers were disturbed and upset after shooting unarmed Jewish women and children and then burying them in huge dugout trenches. Many were finding it more and more difficult to do as time went by. Killing die Juden in the gas chambers and the ovens was more of an 'out of sight' genocide for many of the soldiers, plus it left no telltale signs, unlike burying them did.

  I saw the story of what 12 American soliders apparently did over in Afganistan and yes, it's horrific. However it's easy for us, sitting in free countries behind a computer screen to verbally lynch all of them. Being trained to fight and kill others in a war does horrible things to a person's psyche. You are trained to kill, to pull the trigger first and ask questions later-----They are the enemy and they must be destroyed. It shouldn't be surprising that this sort of thing happens because it's been happening throughout history. The only surprise is that it doesn't happen more often.
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  PSacramento

  You present a balanced picture of things PS Sacramento.

  Been on BOTH sides, I have served and I am now a civilian, it helps.

  I hate war and violence (one thing I liked about JW's was their neutral stance). I have since become less ant-military though. Because to deny the fact that we live in a world where a small percentage of the population are antisocial psychopaths with murderous agendas (or just greedy bastards who want to dominate others and claim all the world's resources for themselves), is to deny reality. And as long as their are mindless droness to follow them and kill for them.... well you get the picture.

  We need a better "weeding" out process for those interested in joining the military.

  So, unfortunate as this fact is, I can see the need for a military if only for self-defence against predators. However the way we train the military and fail to weed out the psychopaths and sadists is something that can be improved imo. Or does the military and the process of war, actually create psychopaths and sadists? It might be a self-reinforcing feedback loop. In fact, there is strong scientific evidence it is.

  Some people shoudl NOT serve in the military, some people are far too "sociopathic" and have for too little regard for human life.

  Thankfully it is the minority.

  The other problem is how many armies are truly used only for self-defense and never initiate the aggression? Standing militaries are a slippery slope that need to constantly have the spotlight shone on them to prevent atrocities. No blindly accepting any institutions as sacred.

  We must hold those the serve to PROTECT us to a higher ideal than those that serve others to kill us.
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  snowbird

  "War is hell." William Tecumseh Sherman ain't never lied!

  A brother-in-law who was Medi-vac'd out of Afghanistan recently has some harrowing stories to tell.

  He reports that the village people relieve themselves openly (pee and poo).

  The little ones stand at the gates of their compounds and beg incessantly - especially for Gatorade.

  Even though the soldiers disobey orders and give them treats, fierce hatred for the soldiers is expressed in the children's eyes. They've been taught to loathe all things American.

  It's stuff like this that can drive the most noble-minded person insane.

  Not excusing the soldiers' conduct at all. Just giving another viewpoint.

  Syl