Leader of First Christian Movement after Death of Jesus

by cameo-d 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    "have come to exist" implies that these concepts were not in existence before James the Just.

    Not at all, dear cameo-d (peace to you!). It implies that James is the REASON they came into existence... and that HE came after they were... ummmm... readied/prepared/created... for him. Do I agree with this? I neither agree nor disagree, as my Lord is silent on the matter. Which says, to me, that it's none of my concern. Sort of like when Peter questioned about what was going to occur with Lazarus (or, as some believe, John). Meaning, it has no bearing on MY life, one way or another.

    I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Heaven and earth exist because of James the Just? "have come to exist" implies that these concepts were not in existence before James the Just. What do you all make of this phrase?

    It derives from a common Jewish saying about the just (tsaddik): "the world was created for the sake of the righteous" (Sifre Deuteronomy 47), "The world exists for the sake of one righteous person, as it is said that the righteous is the foundation of the world" (b. Yoma 38b). As James was called "the Just", it was rather natural for the saying to be applied to him. The saying was applied to Abraham, Moses, Israel as a people, etc. in rabbinical sources. It is also similar to statements about the predestination of the righteous, e.g. "I [Moses] was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" (Assumption of Moses 1:14).

    The yin and yang is harmonized opposites, not Yin transformed into Yang or vice-versa. That is NOT what the GOT states.

    Some gnostics had a clear concept of the true God having an androgynous nature (cf. the Sethian view of Barbelo), but the statements in the Gospel of Thomas have in view the evil fleshly aspect of gender, not the spiritual one. So we read in logion 79 of the Gospel of Thomas: "Blessed are the wombs that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk". The Gospel of the Egyptians has Jesus declare that he came to "undo the works of the female", for "as long as you women bear children death will have power" (cited by Clement of Alexandria). Irenaeus reports that the gnostic Saturninus "says that marriage and procreation are from Satan" (Adversus Haereses 1.24.2), and the Encratites "preached against marriage, thus setting aside the original creation of God, and indirectly blaming him who made the male and female for the propagation of the human race" (1.28.1). These are the views attacked in the Pastorals concerning those who forbid marriage. Women who procreate do the work of the Demiurge in enslaving the wealth that is the soul by imprisoning it in the poverty that is the body (cf. logia 29, 112 in the Gospel of Thomas). The idea that women should make themselves male in logion 114 depends on this misogynistic view on women's bodies. A woman who makes herself male, within the gnostic worldview, is one who rejects the standard Jewish-Christian role of betrothal-marriage-childbearing but rather is one who adopts a role in gnostic society that is identical to that accorded to men. This made the gnostics very different from orthodox Christians, who observed very rigid gender roles depriving women of many roles within the church normally reserved for men. As Tertullian wrote: "They all have access equally, they all listen equally, they all pray equally...The very women of these heretics, how wanton they are! For they have bold enough to teach, to dispute, to enact exorcisms, to undertake cures, and even baptize" (De Praescriptione Haereticorum 41). The equality makes sense within the gnostic worldview, which regarded the fleshly body as a sham imposed by the Demiurge on pure souls; distinctions based on biological difference thus did not matter. It is interesting that such a seemingly progressive pseudo-"feminist" view is predicated on the kind of misogyny about female sexuality and embodiment that is still very common in the Middle East.

  • designs
    designs

    Thanks Leolaia, that explains Bethel life...........

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Leolaia: So we read in logion 79 of the Gospel of Thomas: "Blessed are the wombs that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk".

    I think this is taken out of context because the preceding verses are needed in order to understand where this idea is coming from.

    Also, I do appreciate your taking the time and contributing the views and sources, however, I think the authors of these citations were misdirected.

    The sense I get from GOT is that those who are singular and autonomous are not weighted down by cares of the world and having the responsibilities and distractions of having to attend to others and are therefore free to pursue spiritual quests and introspection.

    Leolaia: The Gospel of the Egyptians has Jesus declare that he came to "undo the works of the female", for "as long as you women bear children death will have power" (cited by Clement of Alexandria).

    This, to me, is not even logical. Death is a condition of a temporary body regardless of whether procreation continues or not. Maybe we should look at what motives Clement of Alexandria would have had for making such a statement and attributing it to the hero. Could it be that Clement was promoting his own agenda deceitfully using the voice of the hero as his vehicle?

    How many others have instituted an agenda by rewriting translations and saying "well, Jesus said so"!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I think this is taken out of context because the preceding verses are needed in order to understand where this idea is coming from.

    There is no immediate context outside Logion 79, as the logia each stand independently with respect to each other with only occasional catchword linkages. Other than that, the broader context is that of other logia with similar themes in Thomas, as well as other statements about women in related gnostic literature. Within this logion, the blessing I quoted is contextually connected with the previous blessing on those who follow the will of the Father. The implied connection is that those who do not procreate "have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it".

    The sense I get from GOT is that those who are singular and autonomous are not weighted down by cares of the world and having the responsibilities and distractions of having to attend to others and are therefore free to pursue spiritual quests and introspection.

    But there is also an encratic disdain for the body and gnostic introspection transforms the relationship between the soul and the body (cf. Logia 3, 22, 29, 37, 56, 87, 112).

    This, to me, is not even logical. Death is a condition of a temporary body regardless of whether procreation continues or not.

    It may not be logical to you but it is a common gnostic belief. Procreation perpetuates the work of the Demiurge by producing mortal bodies of flesh. Death is a function of the corporeality of matter and would continue as long as procreation continues. Here is a helpful summary of this perspective:

    "The function and purpose of intercourse is to make the light dilute and spread, for each time a child is born the spiritual element caught in this world is diminished and it will be increasingly difficult to save all the spiritual elements. The archontic strategy of procreation is further developed when evil angels are sent down to 'the daughters of men' to beget children with them and mix the scattered light still more with darkness. Consequently, when human beings beget children, they are assisting the archons and act as instruments for them" (I. H. Gilhus, "Family Structures in Gnostic Religion," 2002, p. 243)

    Maybe we should look at what motives Clement of Alexandria would have had for making such a statement and attributing it to the hero. Could it be that Clement was promoting his own agenda deceitfully using the voice of the hero as his vehicle?

    What is cited is very typical of the encratite views found in gnostic literature (such as the Nag Hammadi scriptures). So for instance:

    "And John bore witness to the descent of Jesus. For it is he who saw the power which came down upon the Jordan river; for he knew that the dominion of carnal procreation had come to an end. The Jordan river is the power of the body, that is, the senses of pleasures. The water of the Jordan is the desire for sexual intercourse. John is the archon of the womb...No one knows the God of truth except the person who forsakes all the things of this world and has subdued desire within him in every way...He has made himself male and with self-examination has returned to himself" (Testimony of Truth 30:10-31:12, 41:4-10).

    "To the present day sexual intercourse, which originated from the first ruler (= Yaldabaoth), has remained. And in the female who belonged to Adam it sowed a seed of desire, and by sexual intercourse it raised up birth in the image of the bodies. And it supplied them some of its counterfeit spirit" (Apocryphon of John 24:26-31).

    "I became acquainted with a sweet desire for your mother. Next the zenith of our eternal acquaitance perished from within us and weakness pursued us. For this reason, the days of our life became few. For I knew that I had become under the authority of death" (Revelation of Adam 67:1-9).

    "The body is a domestic animal. Indeed just as the bodies of domestic animals perish, so too these modeled forms will perish. Does it not result from sexual intercourse like that of the domestic animals? If it, too, is from intercourse, how can it produce anything different than they do?.... When all the chosen lay down bestiality, then the light will withdraw up to its essence and its essence will receive it unto itself.... Woe to you who put your hope in the flesh and the prison that will perish. What you destroy is your own souls" (Book of Thomas 139:4-10, 28-30, 143:10-15).

    "The first sensual pleasure sprouted upon the earth, woman followed the earth, and marriage followed woman, procreation followed marriage, and death followed procreation. After that particular manifestation of Eros, the grapevine sprouted from the blood which was poured upon the earth. Therefore those who drink it engender in themselves the desire for intercourse. After the grapevine, a fig tree and a pomegranate tree sprouted up on the earth, together with the rest of the trees according to their kinds, having their own seed within them derived from the seed of the powers and their angels" (Origin of the World, 109).

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