586/7 vs. 607 (another one) Critique my letter please....

by bigmouth 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • bigmouth
    bigmouth

    Since moving back to another town I've met up with an elder I knew from way back. (I met him coming out of a Salvation Army shop.)

    He visited me at home a few weeks ago, and as I seem to be getting more comfortable at fading I invited him in and told him I was very concerned over the 607 bce. teaching and the U.N. debacle. I told him he needed to research these things for me and come back with answers. Didn't think he'd bother. He did. He gave me a mish-mash of WT articles and some stuff by Rolf Furuli. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised at his lack of imagination but maybe he felt obligated to return.

    I figured that any reply I gave him would never be listened to so I thought I could write a short letter to him that avoided all the chronology but might get him to actually research the subject for himself. He had expressed doubt about some things in the past so perhaps considering my thoughts might be a litlle scary for him.

    So, do you think the following style of letter might get someone thinking rather than defensive ??

    Thanks for any comments.

    THE 607 bce VERSUS 586/7 BCE DEBATE

    Virtually all secular and religious authorities agree on the destruction of Jerusalem occurring in 586/7 bce. The Watchtower Society maintains that these authorities are wrong and the destruction occurred in 607 bce.
    This matter of twenty years or so would seem to be a fairly academic matter at first glance.

    The problem the Watchtower has with the accepted date of 586/7 bce. is that, if accepted as historical fact, then the calculation of the beginning of the Last Days and Jesus Christ's invisible presence would have to begin in 1934/5 ce. and not 1914 ce.

    1914 is a critical year in Watchtower theology. The basis of Watchtower teaching centres, to a large extent, around the belief that mankind is living in 'the last days of this system of things'. The belief is that, with the outbreak of World War 1 in 1914, mankind had arrived at a point in history where Satan and his Demons had been hurled from the heavenly realm to the confines of the earth in order to wreak havoc with mankind 'for a short time' and then the destruction of the incorrigably wicked would occur at Jehovah's hand in the battle of Armageddon.

    The longest lasting teaching with regard to this 'short time' was that a number of 'the generation of people who were at an age of understanding of world events in 1914 would be alive to witness Armageddon and live on into the new earth'. This teaching has been modified two or three times since 1995 and the term 'generation' has a somewhat looser definition than the seventy or eighty years that were originally accepted. (Compare the positioning statement change at the bottom of page 4 in both the Oct. 22, 1995 and Nov. 8, 1995 Awake's)

    When there is a conflict between secular dates and Biblical chronology, the Watchtower will follow the Biblical line as being infallible. The Insight on the Scriptures Vol. 1 on p. 450 para. 1 says'..it is only when the secular chronology harmonizes with the Biblical record that a person may rightly feel a measure of confidence in such ancient secular dating'. This is a commendable attitude by Christians who view the Bible as the final authority on all sorts of matters. The Watchtower does admit, however, that even based on the Bible record there is room for errors to come in and explains this in the Insight book Vol. 1 p. 463 para. 1 when discussing a chart of the Kings of Judah and Israel; “The chart is not intended to be viewed as an absolute chronology but, rather, as a suggested presentation of the reigns of the two kingdoms.” After pointing out that the ancient historians recorded on the basis of facts and figures well known to them but not to us, the publication re-iterates; “...we may be satisfied with simply setting out an arrangement that harmonizes reasonably with the Biblical record”.

    The problem, though, is that many learned men can and do read Scripture and come to varying understandings of what they have read. Many individuals claim Divine direction or guidance or inspiration in order to interpret what they read as the mind of God. The Watchtower makes claim to being the sole instrument of God, especially since 1919 and as such believe that they are specially directed toward correct understanding of Biblical Truth by Him. They claim that no other entity has this relationship with the Creator.

    Given the vast collection of opinion, research and argument on this subject not just in books, tracts and articles but also on a myriad of internet sites, most ordinary people, without an academic background, are simply overwhelmed. They may well think that it's too complicated for them to figure out. (Compare Ec. 12:12). If you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses it is far easier to simply accept that the Watchtower Society must be correct and get on with life. If you accept the Watchtower teaching that 1914 is arrived at by counting 2520 years from 607 bce., then 607 bce. is the correct date.

    If you don't agree with this statement then you are at odds with The Watchtower. The most cherished date in the Watchtower's short history is unquestionably 1914 ce. If this pivotal date were overturned in favour of another, then the entire chronology for the 'last days', 'this generation' and the choosing of the 'faithful and discreet slave' for example, would be rendered meaningless.

    If you have faith that the Watchtower Society is, in fact, the sole dispenser of Truth, then you must accept that 607 bce. is the date of Jerusalem's destruction.

    If you are unsure about who has got it right, then you open yourself up to all sorts of uncomfortable questions.

    The bottom line is; no one can force you to accept one point of view over the other. Clearly there has been enormous research on both sides of the question. But in matters that require faith, neutrality is not usually an option. Jesus is recorded as seeing things as black and white when he said, at Ma. 12:30, “He that is not on my side is against me...”. I don't want to argue with Jesus, but, 2000 years down the road and after a proliferation of religious groups and individuals, I'd like to get out to the sidelines and think a bit more carefully about who or what to believe. Who knows, I might decide to not put my trust in anyone much at all.

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    Hi Bigmouth-excellent letter. I may borrow it to send to my mother-in-law. I have a letter from her on its way (I was forewarned) so I want to come up with a reply that might make her think. She, however, has never had doubts so not sure if her wall is even penetrable (sp).

    You didn't come across as "I'm right, you're wrong" which can be a turnoff to a diehard JW (the irony). Were you going to include anything about the UN thing?

    I look forward to other comments.

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    Edited to remove double post.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Don't send it.

    There is no point in telling a cult member they are wrong.

    You want them to tell you they are wrong.

    Tell him nothing

    Ask him to draw you up a list of years of the Neo-Babylonian Empire showing which king reigned in each year. Give him no help. Insist on an answer. Guilt him if he tries to weasel his way out of drawing up a list. Make him do the work. Do not accept pages of blurb or psychological warfare. You want a list, as described, nothing else, except, if he prefers, his head on a plate.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Hi bigmouth

    Good letter, but I kinda agree with Black Sheep.

    However, if you do want to send the letter, IMHO it should be punchier with some key points standing out more.

    I told him he needed to research these things for me and come back with answers. Didn't think he'd bother. He did. He gave me a mish-mash of WT articles and some stuff by Rolf Furuli. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised at his lack of imagination but maybe he felt obligated to return.

    I can guess at the kinds of 'arguments' he presented, but was there anything in particular he latched on to as 'proof'?

    I thought I could write a short letter to him that avoided all the chronology but might get him to actually research the subject for himself.

    He may think he already did research for himself by digging out WT articles and Furuli, so he would need to be shown why that kind of 'research' is far from adequate in establishing the facts. To do that you'd have to stray into chronology - just something short and simple - but it would depend on what he had brought up in your discussion. (If you were to get another opportunity, have you thought about illustrating the K.I.S.S. method to him?)

    "Virtually all secular and religious authorities agree on the destruction of Jerusalem occurring in 586/7 bce. ..."

    I'd delete the word "virtually." The only religious authorities that disagree with that date in favor of 20 years earlier have ties with C.T. Russell's chronological scheme.

    Regarding the 'generation' - this is a peripheral issue. Could you leave it out? If not, and you feel it's important to keep it in, why not hit him with all 6 (7?) of the WTS' changes of definition from Russell onward?

    "The problem, though, is that many learned men can and do read Scripture and come to varying understandings of what they have read. Many individuals claim Divine direction or guidance or inspiration in order to interpret what they read as the mind of God."

    I'd emphasize here that the scholars who are also committed Christians have the utmost respect for the Bible's authority and testimony, and yet they STILL disagree with the WTS' date for Jerusalem's destruction - why is that? Is it merely that they are 'blinded by the god of this system' (on which basis we can reject anything that doesn't fit with our own cherished views without examining it on its merits)? Or do they have sound biblical (as well as historical) reasons for rejecting the 607 date? If he can thoroughly understand why they believe as they do, maybe he'll see they have a point.

    "I don't want to argue with Jesus, but, 2000 years down the road and after a proliferation of religious groups and individuals, I'd like to get out to the sidelines and think a bit more carefully about who or what to believe. Who knows, I might decide to not put my trust in anyone much at all."

    I'd delete the last sentence ("Who knows ...") - it makes it sound like you're totally lost which, I think, would discourage further research on the elder's part ('If this is what research leads to - all this uncertainty and not trusting anyone - I think I'll stick with what I already know'). Or else finish with Ps. 146:3.

    Again, these comments are only my take on it. You know your elder friend best and what would/wouldn't appeal to him.

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    countdown to Scholar.....5, 4, 3, 2,

  • simon17
    simon17

    Yeah its a nice letter but I think its a little too much misdirection and not focused enough on the core issue. I think it should be far shorter and far more pointed. You give a JW a letter like that with 50 things they can focus on, then you'll NEVER get them to focus on the one thing they want. He'll wade through that and find something that is questionable, attack that, and then feel good about all his beliefs.

    I would go more with:

    "Thanks for getting back to me and doing that research. I know I have looked into the WT's thoughts on the matter quite thoroughly and am very familiar with what I believe to be very unsubstantiated claims that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE. I have also looked through extensive current archaelogical opinion and evidence on the matter, all of which point to 586/7 BCE instead. Have you looked at what that evidence is? These same people are the ones who have unearthed all the evidence for 539 BCE as the date of Babylon's overthrow. Have you looked into why the WT trusts THAT date, but then DENIES the other which is found in the exact same way, with the exact same evidence. It is impossible to accept one of those two dates and dismiss the other."

    I think something like that makes him focus on the crux of the matter without any wiggle room.

  • bigmouth
    bigmouth

    Tweetie Bird - You're very welcome to use this however you like. I hope it helps.
    Black Sheep - "Insist on an answer. Guilt him if he tries to weasel his way out of drawing up a list. Make him do the work. Do not accept pages of blurb or psychological warfare. You want a list, as described, nothing else, except, if he prefers, his head on a plate."
    -You're probably right. He'd give the letter as much of a cursory glance as he would any historical proof. This subject will be just too hard for him to bother with.

    AnnOMaly - Ah! Thank you ! I was looking for that post. I knew it had something to do with the KISS principle
    . -"was there anything in particular he latched on to as 'proof'? ". Not especially. When he returned, unexpectedly of course, I was leaving to go fishing with my son. Actually, he did ask if I had been looking at apostate web sites. I told him that I will read anything I choose to, apostate or not.
    -"Regarding the 'generation' - this is a peripheral issue. Could you leave it out?" - I guess so. I just felt that 607, 2520 years and 1914 were inexorably tied into WT dogma. I was hoping he might draw the conclusion that the Society is on shaky ground having a conclusion that requires the dates to fit.
    - "I'd emphasize here that the scholars who are also committed Christians have the utmost respect for the Bible's authority and testimony, and yet they STILL disagree with the WTS' date for Jerusalem's destruction - why is that?" - Excellent point.
    - "I'd delete the last sentence ("Who knows ...") - it makes it sound like you're totally lost "- Good idea, I didn't mean to come across like that. I'm more ambivalent than lost. Maybe I don't care if he comes back or not. There you go..!....it's ambivalence !
    simon17 -"...a little too much misdirection and not focused enough on the core issue. I think it should be far shorter and far more pointed. You give a JW a letter like that with 50 things they can focus on, then you'll NEVER get them to focus on the one thing they want. He'll wade through that and find something that is questionable, attack that, and then feel good about all his beliefs."- You are absolutely right there Simon. I actually wanted to go the route you mentioned. I had written in that style to another person and got a reply that seemed like she had never read it. So I was trying this gentler style. However, this guys an elder and the other was 'my' old (lowly woman) Bible student. I should probably have done things the other way around.

    Thanks to all. So....Scholar. Any ideas??

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Your letter is fine and factually correct...the problem you encounter if you give it to him is this:

    Watchtower=Jehovah God

    You constantly refer to the watchtower, watchtower society, and watchtower theology, watchtower chronology, etc.

    To a mind controlled Witness, this is the same as saying Jehovah.

    They will shut down their logical mind the second you attack their God.

    I agree with Black Sheep, while asking for something like a King list is a longshot (because they wont do the work) it at least has a slim chance of engaging their brain.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The text is a bit dense, for my tastes.

    You could make it more personal; more conversational.

    After all, getting hit with a formal chunk of dense paragraphs doesn't communicate tender emotional caring the way a paraphrased introduction and some carefully parsed informality would do.

    This entire subject is about as enthralling as reading an insurance policy with all the fine print.

    Ask yourself why before telliing what.

    In the late 1800's after the Civil War there were a lot of deeply wounded religious people who had had enough conflict, disillusionment and strife who wanted GOD to solve their problems (since they themselves could not!).

    Since America had largely been settled by profoundly religious people it was only natural they'd pray and search scripture for answers.

    When people who deeply believe in God's miraculous interventions explore scripture for enlightenment they always seem to find it--even if they have to MAKE IT ALL UP!

    A sincere Baptist lay preacher named William Miller started the JESUS IS COMING!! JESUS IS COMING!! craze off with a bang in 1831.

    Starting with Daniel 8:14 he cooked up a crazy quilt chronology for the 2nd Advent: 1843.

    Miller got it wrong.....twice!

    After that various people who just wouldn't give up kept going......and going....and going.......and going........including Charles Taze Russell.

    This is the springboard for the Watchtower Society's computations.

    Don't lose sight of this chain of events.

    1.Devout crackpots always find a way to piece together a scenario of chronology

    2. Those crakpots are always proved wrong.

    3.Those selfsame loonies will not and cannot admit they are wrong---ever! (They are intellectually dishonest.)

    4.Explanations are made up to explain the failures, changes, re-interpretations, etc.

    In view of this fact---what possible good can it do you or anybody else to engage in a discussion argument or debate with intellectually dishonest people??

    They CANNOT be wrong no matter what proof you give. Why is this? Because admitting they are wrong destroys their world worse than any Armageddon can.

    So--the only course of action you can take is to steer away from proofs and stick with CONSEQUENCES instead.

    Meaning what?

    Point out the impact on believers who go along with such chronologies. The ridiculous spectacle of 1975 has been allowed, gradually, to become a distorted lie because the wounded either leave the organization or dig in deeper and become cognatively impaired.

    Most of the ones who leave end up bouncing into another crackpot scenario in mainstream Christianity. They cannot escape the addiction to supernatural thinking.

    You will NEVER succeed in proving 587 and 607 any more than you can convince an alcoholic not to take a drink!

    They have to hit bottom for themselves and escape their own quicksand thinking.

    Try being more forthright. Be a standup guy. Be direct. Demonstrate the impact on your own life these crazy theologies have wrought upon you.

    You are dogpaddling in the rapids until you climb out on dry land.

    Be an example.

    You'll never be able to compete with the stranglehold of the Governing Body as an authority.

    Be a human being instead.

    Skip the fine print and ask the simplest question possible: "Has mankind been waiting expectantly for two thousand years just to have Christ Jesus take the throne in 1914....only to sit idly doing nothing for the last 96 years???

    Those thousands of Watchtower articles eagerly proclaiming the invisible event are the same bunch of hooey that William Miller cooked up back in 1843 which led to an event Jehovah's Witnesses live with every single day of their life:

    THE GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT!

    Despite the urging of his supporters, Miller never personally announced an exact date for the expected Second Advent. However, in response to their urgings he did narrow the time-period to sometime in the Jewish year 5604, stating: “My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take possession of the same, with all the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844.” [ 1 ] March 21, 1844, passed without incident, but the majority of Millerites maintained their faith.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit