How Do You Get Someone Out? (Part 1)

by Mindchild 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    How Do You Get Someone Out? Part 1

    I thought it might be advantageous to discuss effective ways of getting someone out of the Borg and to dispel some myths we might be entertaining about beliefs and changing them. In this thread I was hoping to start a discussion about the sociology of the Witness belief system and how this can be used to help people escape from the mental trap they have found themselves in. The first “outside” book I ever read about JW’s was in the late 1970’s by James Beckford. Here is a quote I found useful from his book:

    "What is sociologically interesting about JW's is that they derive psychological satisfaction from perceiving a coherent pattern in their beliefs regardless of possible inner inconsistencies, and that, even if they do notice inconsistencies, they can then abrogate personal responsibility for their own beliefs in the safe conviction that someone, somewhere in the WTS must be able to solve the problem. An implicit premise in the argument is usually that, if the perceived inconsistencies were real, then the beliefs would not have gained widespread popularity" (James A. Beckford, "The Trumpet of Prophecy: A sociological Study of Jehovah's Witnesses", p120)
    Of course this is something many of us can relate to from our own personal experience. When I look back at this in my own life, I can see that I it was not only something I believed in my conscious mind but that it had been ingrained in me as a way of life. It wasn't something I thought about, and it was just a truth for me. It was in my subconscious mind. Before then, I had not realized that I had any other choices for beliefs. As long as I kept that belief I would keep making choices, which would prove that belief to be true.

    So, what started the process by which dubs wake up? Perhaps psychology might have a few insights for you.

    I would like to start by sharing something I learned in college and it was an experiment in which our professor decided to do in real time instead of just having us read about it. He happened to know on that particular day of class that one of the students, a woman, was going to be coming in late to class. So, right after class started, he told everyone who was there that we were going to test belief systems today and what he was going to do was draw three straight horizontal lines on the chalkboard. Two of the lines would be almost exactly the same length but the third line was going to be several inches shorter. He then told us that next he was going to ask for a show of hands of everyone who thought these three lines were the same length, and he wanted us all to raise our hands, even though we obviously knew they were not. So, the stage was set and shortly after the late student arrived in class, he did his experiment and all of us raised our hands to agree that the lines were all the same length even though they were not. Interestingly, so did the late student who was not privy to the experiment.

    He asked her a moment later to come up to the board and take a look at the lines. She did and after looking at them up close she admitted that they were not the same length. He asked her then why she raised her hand with everyone else. I expected her to say that it was because she didn’t want to look stupid or something but she argued passionately that she really believed the lines were the same length because everyone was raising their hands.

    How well we know this from our own dub days! We can look at the things we passionately believed in then but recognize now how mistaken we were. This is the power of groupthink. When you subscribe to a belief and you are surrounded by others who believe the same thing, there is a strong tendency for you to conform your powers of perception to the group standards.

    RULE 1: The less they attend meetings and associate with other Witnesses, the less they will be influenced by groupthink.

    RULE 2: The more time you can associate with them either in person or otherwise, the more influence you will have on them.

    As you all know, the Witnesses are terrified of talking to apostates because they will hear something they would rather not know. So you might ask, is there something again from psychology we can use here to help us get our information across to someone inside we want to help?

    Well think of the situation like this. Let’s say you personally had a phobia about snakes. I mean just the word “snake” gives you a sick feeling in your stomach. We all know that people can over come their phobias by gradual exposure from non threatening means and eventually disarm the emotions that accompany the phobia. In therapy, the first session might be something along the lines of just talking about snakes. In future sessions a very comical children’s toy snake may be sitting on the therapists’ desk during the conversation, and depending upon the progress, some photographs of real snakes might be shown to the patient. Eventually, these baby steps lead to further and more realistic exposure to the point where the patient actually touches and interacts with a real snake.

    We can use this same approach then in getting someone to talk to us. If you are on speaking terms then with the party you are trying to help, use this next rule:

    RULE 3: Talk about your life. The positive changes you are making. The accomplishments you have had. Don’t argue doctrine. Don’t rub their nose in WTS scandal.

    In time, after frequent contact in a non-threatening way, you can go to the next rule:

    RULE 4: Gradually introduce subjects that are more controversial in an objective way. Don’t engage in extended debate over it, as this works to make you look like the enemy. Always put the burden of proof on them. Ask them to help you understand things.

    If you don’t enjoy the ability to communicate freely with the person you are trying to help, use the back door approach. Perhaps you can find out their email address and where they go online. You can then pretend to be someone who doesn’t know them (a newly interested person) and really play the part and ask some questions…and let them study with you online (not in person of course). This is a more dangerous approach as you can never let them on to who you really are but if you don’t have any other choice in the matter, a long shot might be better than nothing. Anyway, just follow the rules above and over time start asking the tough questions, always making them give you an answer that requires research on their part, and show what is wrong with it.

    To be continued at a later time…

    Any comments thus far?

    Skipper

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Good points. Good topic.
    Even if you've totally screwed up in the beginning, you can start again.
    Slow and steady is the only way.
    SLOW is the most important because sometimes you can get the feeling that there is a "turn" and take the next step too quickly.

    Waiting for more.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Good advice. It reminds me of a talk given last weekend at my in-laws circuit assembly.

    The speaker (a CO), told the story of a young Witness boy who went onto the internet and met what he thought was a young JW girl. After getting to know her a bit, and conversing, he discovered that she was actually an APOSTATE girl !!! Yes, Satan is crouching in wait, seeking to devour our young, vulnerable ones.

    The point of the talk was to scare JW's away from the internet and vilify anyone who knows enough to refute them. As you said "Don’t engage in extended debate over it, as this works to make you look like the enemy."

    You must be Satan.

  • freeman
    freeman

    Skip: Good points, but I wish I were as patient as you suggest, and would have taken baby steps with my wife.

    Unfortunately, my utter contempt for the Borg has caused me to project to my wife in time-compressed-format, (fast, loud, and nasty) the litany of crimes committed by the WTBTS. In retrospect, I believe the double-barrel in your face method was not the best approach.

    I wish I knew of someway to start anew so I could use a more delicate approach. My fear is that my previous error would negate any new attempt I tried. Any suggestions?

    Freeman

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    Freeman,

    I can understand your actions and feelings exactly. When I left, I lost my whole extended family and I sent everyone some really heavy letters expressing my views and didn't pull any punches. Some years later I found out they had simply tossed the letter in the garbage can after reading the first hard hitting blow. Sometimes the direct confrontational...in-your-face works good (check out Englishman's recent thread about this) but most dubs are not prepared for that much realism.

    So, is there anyway of undoing the damage? I believe so. First of all, the dubs always want to believe you will come back. If I were in the same situation, depending upon which media you are used to using (like email, phone, or face to face) I would first of all apologize for any anger expressed at an earlier time.

    Anger comes from the pain of being betrayed by the Borg and while some of us have more anger than others, it works to ruin our own life even long after we have left the Witnesses. If you have not had therapy, I suggest you try a few sessions to see how much anger you still have and learn to release the pain. Then you can honestly tell your wife that you regret the anger and you are now in the process of healing yourself and that while you want to be able to talk to her and share with her, you don't want to get into doctrinal arguements, etc. This should make her more open to talking to you and wanting to help you.

    In time, you will no doubt find her trying to get you back inside but you can kindly and patiently point out some things you have trouble with and ask her to try to reason things through. Always let her take the initiative though and just respond in a calm and friendly way (as much as you want to pull out your hair).

    I will make some additional information when I can find time to do it about other psychological tools to assist people in helping others out.

    Kind Regards,

    Skipper

  • detective
    detective

    These steps are interesting. For me, the steps were reversed (probably due to my worldliness). It was rule 2,3,1 then 4. Of course, rule number four kinda killed rules two, three and one in the end.
    Actually, I had done much prep work getting myself informed and then planting seeds here and there but was forced into a "confrontation" before I was comfortably ready. My ultimate goal was to get my friend out but my more realistic goal was just to get the rusted wheels in my friend's head turning.
    I found books by Steven Hassan helpful. Additionally, some basic knowledge of psychology and/or sociology can be beneficial. I think one of the key concepts touched upon in Hassan's books was the issue of trust. Especially if you are a known dissenter. Connecting with someone and gaining there trust is, in my opinion, an essential part of getting them to open themselves up to conversation. Of course, as I unfortunately found out, any mention of rule #4 (tidbits about the group) can send someone into a frenzy of distrust.

    Asking people to open up and consider another viewpoint is difficult. There is no exact science to it but having a few basic suggestions to work with is helpful. I'd recommend reading Hassan's books even if you don't believe the group is a "destructive cult" simply because offers reminders and insights into communication that can prove valuable.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Freeman
    I thought exactly the same thing.
    Not true. Slow & careful is the answer. I'm just starting again.
    I know exactly what you are describing. Been there.
    Problem, this slow thing goes against the idea that the longer you wait the worse it is.
    First step is to ignore it (hard) and try to get close (like dating again) Fill the "love" hole. Oh my that sounds bad. You know what I mean.
    gotta go

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    What a bunch of garbage. It's the same tactic JW's use. The old "you catch more flies with honey then vinegar" I say you catch more flies with feces than with vinegar or honey.

    Leave people alone. If you don't believe in God and you think we all are going to get burned up when the sun explodes the next time why do you waste time.

    By the way the quote "What is sociologically interesting about JW's is that they derive psychological satisfaction from perceiving a coherent pattern in their beliefs regardless of possible inner inconsistencies...blah,blah." is not really interesting at all from a sociological standpoint. The same can be said about the pressures on this board. Very little substance as long as you hate JW's. ALL humans want to be accepted by a community. That includes the pathetic participants in this forum.

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    LOL@proplog2...

    I'm so happy to know that my thread crawled up your ass and bit you good! This means we are on the right track and I'm doing a good job!!!

    I will leave the Witnesses alone the day they stop murdering people with their vile beliefs, ruining children's lives, being the world's biggest hypocrites, and send every ex-JW a large settlement for them fucking up our lives.

    Just wait until I post later installments of what I learned from reading CIA brainwashing manuals...you are really going to love this stuff...NOT!

    Skipper

  • detective
    detective

    Propolog2,
    Leaving well enough alone is sometimes far more tempting than trying to encourage a good open communication with someone. In fact, it can be alot easier! As we know witnesses go door to door with their news. Now, I suppose we could argue whether or not they should do this a thousand times over but in the end,they go out because they feel justified in doing so. Whether it be because they care about those outside their faith or because they feel it is scripturally mandated or just to save their own skin- they feel justified in doing so. Similiarly, those that care about witnesses may feel justified in approaching them with their concerns.
    What can we say? We're interconnected. Hands off is one approach to the subject or you can try to open up the communication (yes, even with a "taboo" goal at the end- like getting someone to convert or de-convert). To each his own, I guess, but I'm glad someone brought the topic up.

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