by Mindchild 24 Replies latest jw friends
You don't have what it takes to make a differnce. If you had money and could take out a full page in USA Today you might have an effect. But your quoting of brainwashing techniques is pretty pathetic.
Farkel quit posting because he could see that "What flavor toothpaste do you use" gets more views than anything.
This forum is just about wasted.
My response wasn't because I was upset. It's just that its naieve and was an easy target.
My impression was that this was more about a one-on-one type of interaction as opposed creating a mass exodus from the group. I think it could be useful to consider in personal interactions.
I didn't get the impression that mindchild was suggesting this is the cure-all that will magically liberate six million people. Instead, it seems like Mindchild is suggesting some ways people might be able to better communicate with their loved ones (with the goal of possibly getting them out or at least thinking independently enough so that they can weigh their involvement not by ignorance, but by knowledge).
Proplog2...I'm addressing things here on an individual basis. This is really not about attacking the WTS as a whole for their crimes. They are their own worst enemy when it comes to that. I'm directing my ideas here to help people help indiviudals out that they personally feel are worth the investment in trying to help out.
Nothing is going to work overnight and it might take years to get someone to the point where they see that they too have been victimized. That is a difficult thing to get someone to realize.
I don't think any of us have that much drive or patience to help out anyone except those we love dearly.
I do however support the work of those who publicly show the Borg for what it is. I don't know how much of a difference it makes but if nothing else it gives encouraement to those who are already out.
Yes, there is a lot of fluff in here but this place at least serves as a place to hang with people of like mind and to make friends. Maybe nothing beyond that will ever happen, but even so...it is a good thing.
Skipper
Good response Mindchild. I'm not against YOU.
Mindchild,
how do you approach a JW (friend, say) who already knows you're an apostate, or that although you're still 'in', you have strong feelings against the teachings of the Society? I'm not sure if this is a widespread experience, but I think many who've been in and found out the deceit in the organization would have, at some point in their walk away, shown someone, somewhere, how they felt; most times the reply (actually, no-reply, silence) leads to outrage.
For instance, over a year ago when I satrted having 'doubts' about certain teachings (well, my mind was pretty much made up about the teaching), I went to my 'mentor', the guy who studied with me; explained to him... His answer was silence. He won't talk about it. Now, I've started talking to him again, hinting him about 'doubts', he's stopped mailing me. He thinks I'm bad association already... So, I think this is about point #3 in the approach you describe. How do you approaach someone with that mindset, and many JWs do have that mindset.
The 4 steps would be useful in the right, go-slowly situation and for some people might be the only thing to work, but for the quicker direct approach the following is also effective as it embodies love, documented facts, brevity & notes acceptable wholesome alternatives. Or combine both approaches... what works for one person doesn't for the other... decides what's best for the given person as you know them best, i.e. are what are their own concerns, likelihood of responding to a slow/fast/moderate, logical/emotional/both approach? Anyway, this below and similar items have helped many people now for several years. Just copy & mail/email it in whole or part:
LOVING OUR JEHOVAH'S WITNESS FAMILY & FRIENDS, we're informing the Congregation & Public with documentated facts exposing misleadership by Watchtower Society (WTS) heads over our JW loved ones: Christ said families would be divided by some members doing good & others doing wrongs but never ever advocated destruction of families. 1 Cor 6:1 only says judge "trivial" things as in business, James 2:4-13 calls judging harmful, & Paul says the "majority" (2 Cor 2:6), followed his advice to shun a wrongdoer, meaning a minority chose not to & yet he nowhere condemns them. So we ask why the formal Judicial Committes destroying families via numerous formal renderings of disfellowshipment (shunning)? Acts 15:20 says abstain from blood but 1 Sam 14:32-5 says Saul's army ate unBLED meat to not starve & no verses show God not forgiving them plus Christ (Mat 7) says God also forgave David's eating temple holy bread & that God wants Mercy Not Sacrifice. The May 22, 1994 Awake tells of 26 JW kids who died without transfusions, & by common sense in massive bleeding as in car wrecks blood expanders won't save lives (ajwrb.org). An estimated 3 JWs die daily earthwide from the WTS’s unscriptural policy (Blood On The Altar)! Why should our kids, grandkids etc be endangered?
Members are told report on each other though the Bible condemns busy-bodying. Page 302 in the Daniel book and pages 88 and 651 in the Proclaimers book show photos of the Knights Templar swords and the cross-with-crown-and-wreath used by Masons who sometimes use "Theocratic Warfare" tactics to change members' personalities on early WTS’s literature. Some old WT books also have the winged sun god Ra on front covers - never a Christian symbol. Nor are regular JWs allowed to read Judicial Committee "sin files" on themselves, many not knowing they exist; often with misinformation.(photos: freeminds.org) See also picture of Pay Attention To Yourselves And All The Flock book on p 232 of the Insight book that elders have but which non-elders are not allowed to read.
Christ was likely born about Oct 2, so why ignore his being conceived 9 months earlier was in late December? Why insist Christmas is from the pagan Saturnalia when John 10:22-3 says Christ also celebrated the Festival of Dedication or Lights, i.e. Hannukah, which first began Dec 25 but has varied since because lunar-based? Job 1:3, 3:1 & 3:3 show Job's kids celebrated birthdays if you read all 3 verses to see day of birth is meant. Didn't angels celebrate Christ's birth? Santa is from Nicholas, a Christian, not a wizard or pagan god. Why call compromises holidays that attacked & replaced paganisms? Doesn’t Colossians 2:16 say let none judge you about a holiday. WTS heads say the Trinity is believing Father, Son, Spirit are 1 "identical" person yet most churches accept it as 3 totally different entities or persons forming 1 "Godship" (Ro 1:20), Son & Spirit sharing inherited age, power, knowledge from God just as an acorn may be only 1 day old but also have its genes inheriting its ancestral oak tree's age, capacity & information. Human remains & inscriptions show archaeologists the stauros was a cross not stake, Dr F Zugibe's research shows suffocation would be in minutes if on a stake but in hours if on outstretched cross per Lu 23:44 & Mat 27:45-6. Leaders call a cross is a repugnant murder weapon but Paul said boast in it as a symbol of resurrection over death. (Ga 6:14, 1Cor 1:17-18)
Elders often hide local scandals. Leo Greenlees was a child molester fellow Governing Body members over JWs reassigned but never disfellowshipped (excommunicated) in the 1980s (jehovahs-witness.com in the archives, etc), & to date child abuse by Watchtower Society (WTS) associates is still officially covered up, causing costly destructive court costs and reproach including articles in Christianity Today, Dateline NBC investigations etc. For copies of letters to Bodies Of Elders regular members aren't shown including on child abuse see: http://www.silentlambs.org, freeminds.org, observer.org. JWs' kids & grandkids deserve to be safe. Some members in such coverup places complain of physical harassment (poking, shoving etc), hints that "Jehovah’s eyes are everywhere" & elders detailing their most private conversations & bedroom doings with their own marriage mates. WTS articles told elders not to “police” bedrooms in 1978 but later in a talk (but not in writing) in 1983 told regular members "The Practice" of some marital intimacies can lead to Expulsion. (discussed on Jehovahs-Witness.com) Some regular JWs absent that evening have been "expelled" (harassed/trained) without clearly aware why. Contrast this to the pedophilia coverups. "Insight" book articles are on all Bible books except Song of Solomon/Canticles which has much positive marital imagery contrasting with the Gov Body’s views of what is “holy.” Instructed to keep such things "in-house" when asked most elders deny the 1983-onwards policy to protect the Gov Body. WTS heads teach God does not like the UN but until exposed 1991-2001 the WTS was a formal UN associate, not just a UN library card user as claimed. Read the Nov 22, 1998 Awake magazine very closely. Also http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/archive_db.cgi?tablet-00577
This is to help our JW family & friends but exposes the misleadership over our loved ones! They are told they must not read this material if given it by hand, but when e/mailed it most do quietly read it, some exit, most feel angry at first then quietly decrease donations to the WTS etc, if not baptized a JW stay that way etc. Some form nonWTS groups or are independent Christians noting when Paul said there's only "1 faith" the WTS didn't exist so true Christianity is all true Christians over the centuries. If a JW this may be from family or friends though originally from jahchristian at yahoo.com. Please make & share copies.
How Do You Get Someone Out? If you figure this out, let me know. ohhh and don't forget the sunscreen
Ven
"Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
How do you get someone out? You don't. They get themselves out. I am an active JW currently and have just finished reading Crisis of Conscience and am now reading In Search of Christian freedom. I found these quotes from C of C to apply not only to me but, as I percieve, to a lot of other JW's:
"To be genuine, faith must be truly personal, individually arrived at and attained...To believe because other believe is to have a borrowed conviction and a borrowed faith"
I realised after the last Ministerial Training School this past December that I had a "borrowed conviction" and that I needed to just sit down and read the bible (as they always tell us to do) but without any of the societies publications (which they don't tell us to do). As I began reading through Genesis, it finally dawned on me the true purpose for Jehovah's restriction on blood (which is outside of the scope of this topic) and I began to then question other things which I'd been taught. I now have a voracious appetite for the scriptures and read them daily along with a bible commentary that I picked up at a Christian bookstore. Also, being a fan of George Orwell's writtings I can see now so many parallels between the society and 1984! It was from my own curiosity and beginning to question things around me that has led me to where I am today.
I'm still studying and now find that I have a lot of hard choices to make. A lot of my family are in the "truth" as well as my wife's family and all my best friends. I find it very hard to sleep at night too. If you have a friend who is a JW it doesn't really do any good to attack the individuals in the organization because often, as I have found, most individual Witnesses are fine and sincere people. I've had no problems with our elders who are very attentive and sincere in their care of the congregation. Now I'm starting to ramble and I think I'm off topic, so I'll end this here....Thanks for letting me vent.
Hi Tony and welcome,
Felt good did'nt it! (the venting)
You will find a lot of support here.
Keep posting.
And I do agree with you, in the end after all is said and done, you have to save yourself. It is a good thing though when someone who has wised up gives you the tools (discreetly if need be).
tonyend: I'm glad to read your post. And to all here, I learned a lot tonight. Thanks for sharing! don't go away and stop posting; then someone out there will be lost without your help.
