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DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book
by Simon 217 Replies latest forum announcements
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wasblind
I understand Bro Dans anger about this religion, and I feel his anger
but what I don't understand is why he expects us to give this same religion
a break on the failed 1975 prophecy, because of that fiasco, many lives were
ruined, just as they are ruining marriages today. So why give them a break on
one and not the other?
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djeggnog
@carvin:
Since all elders , MS, CO, DO, etc are [appointed] by Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit should have known what was in the heart of all those leaders leaking the book to the public. So we must conclude that Jah wanted the book leaked out.
Is that like you're saying that because Jesus was privileged to be able to perform the many miracles about which we read in the gospel accounts of his ministry due to his having the backing of God's holy spirit, that he should have known that his second cousin, John, would be beheaded by Herodias, which knowledge would have made it possible for John to be raised up as a powerful spirit having immortality as Jesus' apostles came to inherit after their resurrection instead of John's still being asleep in death? With this kind of power at his command, I suppose Jesus also should have known what was in Judas' heart (actually he did!) so that he could have warned Judas against his taking the course he took beforehand, right? So it's really the holy spirit's fault that the lives of these men turned out in the way they did, right? In reading what you wrote here, you do know that the holy spirit is not a person, right?
This idea of yours reminds me of the friends of bereaved parents of a child that has died, who believe their telling the deceased child's parents that evidently "God must have needed another angel in heaven" would be comforting to them (as if there were ever an angel shortage in heaven, and human beings are in reality a research project where angels live with other angels in this earthly environment of ours having physical instead of spiritual bodies where a record of their interactions with one another are recorded in a book until they have finally served their usefulness to God [maybe when only one month old or even one week old!] and they then die as humans to join their angels in heaven). So it's really God's fault that children die, right?
So, as you see it, it was in the heart of those "elders, MS, CO, DO, etc.," to whom the new textbook was not sent (the book was provided for elders and only elders were authorized to receive it) to leak it to the public when they received it, right? It was the fault of the holy spirit that these appointed men leaked it to the public because the holy spirit had to know what they were going to do with this textbook beforehand, right? Therefore, you have concluded and believe that all must conclude that it was God's will that the textbook was leaked to the public? Correct? Do I understand you correctly or am I just being silly here? Perhaps you can clear this up by explaining what it is you intended to say here by this statement.
I heard it said that to control the future you must control the past. In the past the WT was [pretty] good at [controlling] their past, but not anymore. They cant even seem to control their present.
Well, you're close. The quote from Orwell's 1984 is "Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past." While people will often recount historical events in order to justify their future goals, politicians today use their political power to control how people view those historical events. Orwell's novel explores the dangers of living in a totalitarian society under authoritarian governments with absolute political authority as his own life experiences in life informed him, but the words you kinda quoted in your post refer to how language and history can be manipulated in such a way that such propaganda can end up exerting control over not just your life, but over what things you believe to be true or false, right or wrong.
As an example of such manipulation of the past, I have never tried to explain to anyone why it is that in 2010, there are people overtly seeking to control how our young people view Darwinism, a 19th century myth masquerading as science today, except that I do believe Satan to be responsible for the blindness that exist in people's minds. (2 Corinthians 4:4) In 1859, when Origin of the Species was first published, Charles Darwin postulated many things about the origin of life that have since had to be rejected and propped up with explanations not provided by Darwin at all, but true believers in evolution today would move heaven and earth manipulating the past in an attempt to support their belief that life arose by chance than to believe that God is the First Cause to which the Bible attests.
Today, serious origin-of-life biologists don't believe that life could have arisen by chance alone. Proponents of Darwin's theory though believe that natural selection acted on random variations among chemicals to produce the first life, but it is a fact that natural selection could not have functioned before the existence of the first living cell, since it can only act upon organisms capable of replicating themselves, that is to say, cells equipped with DNA that pass on their genetic changes to future generations.
Without DNA there is no self-replication, but without self-replication there is no natural selection, so it isn't possible to use natural selection to explain the origin of DNA without assuming the existence of the very thing one is trying to explain. IOW, natural selection does not explain how the very first self-replicating cell (equipped with DNA) came to exist. But if one can control the present, it is possible to control what people think about the nutty ideas expressed by Charles Darwin.
But the past of Jehovah's Witnesses is all out there exposed for everyone that wishes to see and recount it in detail. Like Charles Darwin, Charles Russell lived during the 19th century, too, and, like Darwin, Russell he had some zany views (like that pyramid of Russell's, for example). But Jehovah's Witnesses today do not embrace those extant viewpoints of the late 1800s and early 1900s and we have never attempted to control our past. Jehovah's Witnesses have no political power since we are no part of this world, so your mention of our ever seeking to control our present in this context is ridiculous.
The saying goes that 'he who controls the present, controls the past,' but Jehovah's Witnesses only want control over how they are conducting themselves in the present with a view to their future. When we examine historical events, we do so in the light of Bible truth, for there are people today that believe in evolution that do not believe the historical event of God's deliverance of a people from Egyptian captivity in 1513 BC as told in the Bible, or even the historical event that occurred in the year 2370 BC involving the global deluge that destroyed an ancient world as also told in the Bible. Because Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible to be God's word, they do believe these Bible accounts to have been real historical events. We inform ourselves of the details of such historical events to help us to know what Jehovah purposes for the future. The present just happens to be where we live, but Jehovah's Witnesses do not endeavor to manipulate the past.
@brotherdan:
They are not upset because the information is "copyrighted" djeggnog. They are upset because their secrets have gotten out.
Who told you that Jehovah's Witnesses are "upset" over this? I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm not upset with anyone. I live in this world and I know the possibilities associated with the dissemination of music and information across cyberspace. The technology of the 21st century doesn't disturb me in the least. I run a radio station and host several websites myself; I use the internet on a daily basis and I don't just mean that I send and receive email or post messages here. Believe me: No one at the WTS is upset with anyone.
If I were a recording artist and all of the songs in MP3 format from my latest project were being disseminated across the internet for free, I would expect the record company to go after those websites that were infringing upon my intellectual property rights to retard the spread of my songs, since there would be no expectation on my part that my company would actually be in any position to control the spread of the MP3s already out there in cyperspace. That is all the WTS is trying to do and nothing more. Jehovah's Witnesses are upset when religious freedom is denied and our work is under ban somewhere in the world, and so we use the courts to fight laws that infringe upon what we believe to be an individual's right to worship as they choose. But are we upset about a textbook being copied electronically again and again and again? No; we're mature Christians that are very cognizant of the realities of life in this world and "we are not ignorant of [Satan's] designs." (2 Corinthians 2:11)
You talk about secrets, but what "secrets" in particular have "gotten out" that you believe will shock the world? Just share one of these secrets that you learned from reading the new textbook that shocked you. Just one secret would be sufficient, please, if you don't mind, @brotherdan.
Have YOU read the new book? It's a disgusting distortion of the Bible and Christianity in general. There is no "shepherding". It is all about who to punish, how to punish them, and what to punish them for.
I'm assuming that in making these comments that you have read the new textbook yourself, so what did you find so "disgusting" in it. What circumscribed punishments does this textbook contain that you have found you so objectionable, @brotherdan? Lay them all out here, or, if this should be too much to ask, maybe you could provide just one of these punishments.
Tell me something, @brotherdan: Do you think it improper for any of Jehovah's Witnesses to write a novel? Yes or no? I mean, if someone had received training as a cardiologist or as a pediatrician, and decided to write a book or a manual in his or her discipline, would you think it improper for that physician to do so if he or she were one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Maybe one of Jehovah's Witnesses should decide to write a book on parenting, including ways in which one might administer discipline to their children. On what basis would you conclude such a book to be "a disgusting distortion of the Bible and Christianity," even if the book should not be written as a substitute for the Bible, but just to help parents with a few ideas on raising their children, especially if that book should embody a few Bible principles sans Biblical citations?
Now if the Vatican had written a book on how the Faithful should deal with matters relating to family life, rearing children, divorce and remarriage, etc., even if you should disagree with some of the suggestions the book contains because you believe it to be "a disgusting distortion of the Bible and Christianity," on what basis would you conclude this book to have been written as a substitute for the Bible, despite the fact that it might actually include Bible citations in it?
I don't believe the new textbook is any substitute for the Bible nor that it was written in order to teach folks about Christianity. I believe it was written to help congregation elders, who come from various educational and environmental backgrounds, to become better shepherds of the flock in their care so that one elder does not handle matters differently in Detroit, Michigan, USA, than that same matter might be handled in Madrid, Spain. As an international association of Christian brothers, we ought to all of us be speaking in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
If you never saw the similarities between the Pharisees and the WTS before, you would after reading this disgusting book. But of course, you love your counterfeit gospel, don't you?
You sound like a bitter man and you may believe you have genuine reasons for believing what things you do about Jehovah's Witnesses, but being familiar with some of what the Talmud says, as a matter of fact having a copy of the Soncino Talmud on my computer here and on my PDA, I don't see any similarly between the teachings of the rabbins (i.e., the Pharisees) and the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses today, and as far as this "counterfeit gospel" to which you refer, what "gospel" would that be, @brotherdan? I don't follow at all, but I'm willing to listen if you are willing to elaborate on what you mean by "counterfeit gospel," ok?
@djeggnog
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Well, I don't need a link. I read an original copy of the publication over the weekend.
It's just a bunch of dry procedural stuff that the local BOEs are going to screw up anyway. Lots of room for additional notes in the margins. Corporate headquarters already knows that they're going to have to continually add more pharisaic regulations for the mindless drones.
Or course, it is interesting to read simply because it's supposed to be so secret. I wasn't surprised by any really big changes. But there was one question that I came away with after reading it... "Why would anyone ask to get married in the KH or ask an elder to perform the wedding?" So many rules, regulations, and personal questions. Even if I hadn't done anything with my fiancee, I wouldn't want some old fart asking whether I'd ever caressed her boobies. That's just a nasty mood-breaker.
And the biggest disappointment of all is that there is no "secret knowledge" in there. It's not got any deep Bible interpretations that predict a Chinese takeover and how to financially prepare. There's no secret instruction on how to cure the sick or de-age the elderly so that they can miraculously be young again and survive the big A.
For a "secret manual" it's massively disappointing.
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AllTimeJeff
djeggnog, if I might be allowed to weigh in, I think you have made your point. You of all people (I hope) can understand the emotion that comes from former JW's.
Now that you have made your point, and the moderators agree with your statements, I fail to see the utility in morphing this thread into, what appears to be an attempt at defending your personal belief system.
I mean, I bet you have personal beliefs, and for that, congrats! Carry on.
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TastingFreedom
EggNogg, I don't know your track record on this site, but based on your posts in this thread, you give the impression of being a loyal Watchtower soldier, trying to infuse fear around here!
There are laws in this country protecting copyrights and property but we also have rights and a constitution that protects our civil rights. Those rights don't go away just because some publisher corporation wants to intimidate us. I think Sheperd has refuted your fear mongering very cleverly!
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Rabbit
Eggnog, you are so terribly verbose. And, despite having some apparent education you are still blinded by the academic.
Which is why... you choose to ignore the human equation, like all the actual JW deaths from blood, vaccine, organ transplants, bans etc. over the history of Jehovah's Witnesses. You simply cannot understand my grief over losing my mom and family. Nor, can you empathize with the thousands and thousands of other similar true human events relating to 'all things Watchtower'.
As I told you, and you ignored, my mother believed in the WT's GB SO much -- she died over the blood issue. Not long after -- the WT's FlickeringLight -- the GB heard new voices in their heads and with a 2/3 majority vote (they don't all hear the same voices down that conduit) -- decided Hemoglobin was now a "Conscience Matter." It could have saved her life.
Wow. The GB delivered "Food at the Proper Time," -- so LATE they missed my loyal JW moms deadline.
One day, an Organ Transplant was "Cannibalism," the next day, when the new WT publication came out -- with The Brand NewLight...Organ Transplants were OK. No more Disfellowshipping.
One day, Vaccines were "...filthy disease causing pus..." part of an AMA "conspiracy" to cause sickness, so they can profit off of it. Then, after vaccination laws were passed, keeping JW kids out of school -- NewLights go on and vaccines are A.O.K. Do you think an Almighty, All-Knowing God would have made those blunders that killed His own people ???
But, you go on and on and on...about the sacred WT words and beliefs and defend all the Academic they espouse. And, you eagerly forget the UGLY, the Hypocritical, the Blood Guilt they have committed for years. You have gotten so calloused, you cannot see why any of us could have big problems caused by joining this cult or feel so frustrated that we may think civil disobedience could be productive.
I realize it would be painful for you to think about all these needless deaths being ordered/expected by the WTB&TS Corporation Bylaws.
So...don't ! It's way too Human and Real. Being verbose is where you excel -- carry on and on and on...
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donuthole
I realize it would be painful for you to think about all these needless deaths being ordered/expected by the WTB&TS Corporation Bylaws.
Rabbit I believe you made really sound points that cuts through all the legal wrangling to get to the heart of the matter. This copyrighted manual contains directives and policies from abusive judicial Committees to medical decisions involving blood to child molestation to suicide that will damage, harm, abuse and yes, even kill people. There is a reason that the Watchtower wanted to keep the contents of this book secret from millions of Jehovah's Witnesses who will suffer from the information it contains. Equally, there will be some who will excercise civil disobedience and ignore copyright laws to see that this information is publicly available.
I say this to former elders and especially current elders. I think for some of you, books like this were/are welcomed. Because so long as you were being told what to do you didn't have to exercise your own conscience. You may have seen first hand the damage and pain you caused others but at the end of the day you could take solace in the fact that you were just doing what you were told. You laid down and thought, Mother knows best; yet even then you still had trouble sleeping. Know this, there will be a day of accounting and on that day when the tears and blood of those you harmed are brought before you, you will not be able to point to a KS book and say I was just following orders. That simply will not cut it.
