by EdenOne 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Viviane: Apathy implies that I don't care. That's not my position at all.
I didn't say you were an apatheist. I only said that functional atheism and apatheism both belong to the domain of attitudes rather than theoretical positions. If I knew for sure that God existed, for sure I would care.
Eden
I take 'absent' in the simplest and most rational of its meanings: not present
OK, that 100% implies existence. If a student is marked "not present" then that student MUST exist.
It may include "exists, but not there", also "not paying attention/not caring", "existed in the past, now dead", or "non-existent".
So, if you are saying it could mean any of those things, then you aren't saying anything and that position is already defined.
That's exactly the problem that absentheism attempts to address: Atheism assumes a certain kind of deity - invisible, all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, entirely good and then debunks the notion that a deity like that may exist. But there are two problems with this, to wit:
Atheism, is no definition, takes on defining any deity. Absentheism is not taking it on, in facts, it's simply making something unclear even less clear by refusing to say what it means. It could literally mean "god exists but isn't here or doesn't exist or we don't know what god is to even figure it out". That's not addressing any problem, it's simply mashing together several well defined positions.
- What about deities that are known to have existed and have been worshiped as such - Caesar Augustus, Aten, the Sun-Disc, or the emperor of Ethiopia Haile Selassie I (the Jah/Messiah of the Rastafarian movement)?
For example, Ceasar is known to have existed as a person. That is a fact. The worship portion, the divinity, was specifically tied to existence of other gods and heaven, being related in some way to those gods. Without them, you get no divinity of Ceasar. His divinity is NOT a fact as there is no evidence of those gods or spirit world.
Aten was the disc of the sun depicted as a falcon headed man. Unless you show me a falcon headed man, I fail to see the relevance. Ditto for Selassie. Objects that DO exist were co-opted into a belief system of the unprovable and invisible deities. So what?
- What if a deity that exists leaves no physical footprint in the universe, doesn't communicate or interact directly with humans? What if said entity escapes any known definition that humans so far have come up with? How would we even collect evidence that it exists?
Then all you can say is that there no evidence for that deity and no way to get any evidence, which is already a well defined position and the functional equivalent of "no deity at all".
I didn't say you were an apatheist. I only said that functional atheism and apatheism both belong to the domain ofattitudes rather than theoretical positions. If I knew for sure that God existed, for sure I would care.
And I strongly disagree because apathy implies my attitude is "don't care" which is not true. My actions are defined by my attitude of "do care, have looked all available material and found no evidence that any deity exists". That is wildly different than "don't care".
Well I came back because I promised to but really, what's the point EdenOne? You're still making statements like this;
Atheism assumes a certain kind of deity - invisible, all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, entirely good and then debunks the notion that a deity like that may exist.
Atheism assumes nothing and debunks nothing. You sound like those people who used to tell me when I was a JW; "You don't believe in Jesus!"
Do you really think you have a better understanding of my perspective than I do EdenOne?
Nicolaou,
This is like beating a dead horse already. If you consider yourself an atheist and have the attitude of a functional atheist, who am I to change your views? However, I still think that a theoretical stand that keeps the question of the existence of deity/god open due to lack of evidence, can't correctly be called an atheist, because that is simply being skeptical. To me, it's a mischaracterization. But I concede, maybe it's nitpicking on my part.
Eden
Viviane:
And I strongly disagree because apathy implies my attitude is "don't care" which is not true.
Again, please read carefully what I wrote. I didn't say you had the trait of an apatheist. I simply said that functional atheist and apatheist are domains of attitude towards life, whereas atheism, skepticism, agnosticism are theoretical stands.
Heck, even theists can behave as apatheists or functional atheists, if they chose to behave as if their god wasn't looking.
Eden
I still think that a theoretical stand that keeps the question of the existence of deity/god open due to lack of evidence, can't correctly be called an atheist, because that is simply being skeptical.
Eden1 - Do you keep the possibility of pink unicorns who live under the ocean open?
Keeping an open mind is a good thing but not so far open that your brains fall out.
I dislike the word atheist. Of course I don't believe in "god", there is absolutely no positive evidence for it and tons of compelling evidence against it. To me that is just obvious. It doesn't require a special label.
Viviane:
Aten was the disc of the sun depicted as a falcon headed man. Unless you show me a falcon headed man, I fail to see the relevance.
I don't know where you got that idea from. Aten was depicted as a solar disc with rays emanating from it. And the sun exists, I see it mostly every day here.
You don't personally consider it a meaningful deity, you do so because of cultural bias. So what? To millions of people in the past the sun is indeed a valid deity. To me it's just a sphere of burning gas. Yet, even today, people who know the sun is an orb of burning gas still worship the son, such as Wiccans and Druids, Go figure, deities do exist!
Eden
Again, please read carefully what I wrote. I didn't say you had the trait of an apatheist. I simply said that functional atheist and apatheist are domains of attitude towards life, whereas atheism, skepticism, agnosticism are theoretical stands.
And I disagree. My attitude comes from action, not attitude. You are 100% incorrect.
Eden - Yesterday when you were in a corner you smugly declared that this whole thread was a wind up with no serious intention other than to bait atheists.
You even boasted that you had let another poster in on your ruse before it began. You called those who initially paid you the respect of engaging with your topic hijackers and trolls.
And yet here you are still trying to defend nonsense and repeating the same arguments that were demolished yesterday and still you ignore every rational point made against you.
You are making a liar of yourself.
I have started the absentheist thread without any really serious purpose but a word play... However, I suspected that one or two people would jump into this thread, hijacking and trolling it and making it a pulpit for their puffed up self-importance....
End of my comments on this thread. - Eden1 21 hours and 6 pages ago.
