I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?

by EdenOne 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Ruby456

  p.7 in the UK, cofty, easy to find

  here it is

  MASH, I'm using the term "absent" in the rational sense, i.e., "not present". I'm not making any claims regarding the existence or not of deities. I'm just claiming that, upon empirical observation, God wasn't found to be present. And this is all we can say with certainty about God.

  Now, a reasonable claim is: "But, what deity, or what God, are we talking about?"

  This is where it gets more complex.

  Let's assume that the God I have in mind is:

  a) Immaterial

  b) Intelligent

  c) One, unique and undividable entity

  d) Possesses powers beyond my comprehension

  e) Possesses knowledge and wisdom beyond my comprehension

  f) Has a personality with qualities that humans can relate to

  g) Is the origin of the universe and life itself

  h) Interacts with his creation

  h) Wants our worship

  i) Wants us to know his ways and his will

  j) Is willing to befriend or adopt humans based on their faith and/or good deeds.

  k) He is good, loving and compassionate.

  Let's also assume that I conceptualize this deity because of the religious upbringing I had, the western culture I grew up in, and the era in history I lived on.

  Now, if I look around, I concede that there is no hard, empirical evidence that such deity exists. There is testimonial evidence in ancient "holy books" and people who claim they are in touch with such deity. There is a sensation that the existence of such deity would be highly desirable and that may be the foundation of faith for some people. Some people look at the universe and life and beauty and conclude that it could only come from a supernatural power. However, I'm not able to replicate those experiences and I cannot observe nor experience such deity in any meaningful way. There are empirical and logical explanations for the universe, life and beauty that don't require the existence of deities. Therefore, I can rightfully be skeptical of the existence of such deity. But I cannot entirely rule out that it may exist, either, because neither I, nor anyone has scanned the entire universe and all physical dimensions to learn empirically that such deity doesn't exist. So, what can I say about this deity?

  All I can say is that such deity isn't present, that it failed to be present where it was expected to be found, in a word, such deity is ABSENT.

  It's not the same as agnosticism, whose claim is: "God, if it exists, is unknowable". My belief is that if God exists, it should be possible for humans to apprehend his existence using the resources common to all humans (i.e. not resorting to special, magical powers that only certain people claim to have).

  It's not the same as hard atheism who claims positively "Deities don't exist", because I can't make such claim with absolute certainty. Actually, the only form of atheism that is true to its name is hard atheism.

  Absentheism is perhaps a new expression that I am now coining, but I posit that it's the truest expression of skepticism regarding the existence of deities, because it makes a positive claim ("God is absent") rather than a negative claim ("There's no evidence that supports the existence of deities"), and therefore, the burden of proof falls mainly on the negative claim rather than on the positive claim. I CAN prove that God is absent, but I CAN'T prove that God doesn't exist. Can you see the difference?

  Eden
• 

  fukitol

  Sorry, not you Cofty, I mean EdenOne is the sophist. Or I should say AssholeOne, who continues to plagiarise popular agnosticism and can't concede his silly coined 'absentheism' is the same as popular agnosticism.
  

  Neither can he admit the obvious: that something cannot be 'absent' unless that something first exists. Ie, absent is the opposite of 'present'. Unless his definition of 'God' includes the mere notion or fantastical idea of a 'God', in which case we must concede that 'God' has, as a notion or desired concept, never been absent'.
  

  But unfortunately there's not the slightest proof or evidence that any deity or God has ever been 'present' in man's affairs except in people's imagination, and in certain ancient scripture as a deliberate literary fabrication.
• 

  nicolaou

  The only true atheist is the one who emphatically denies the existence of deities.

  Simply incorrect. There is no label for the emphatic denial of the existence of deities, perhaps you'd like to invent that one too? Do you understand what the prefix 'A' in the word Atheism means?

  Really EdenOne, you've tripped yourself up in this topic.
• 

  EdenOne

  Cofty, since you take such delight in quoting Carl Sagan’s axiom:

  “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”

  here are two of Carl Sagan’s quotes that I fully agree with, and you should take to wit:

  “[an atheist]…is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed.”

  and

  “Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.”

  Sagan was a true open-end skeptic, and the quotes above demonstrate it. What you do isn't being skeptical - you come across as a dogmatic atheist bigot. Embrace it with honesty, or change.

  Eden
• 

  nicolaou

  On the 'absent' thing. Imagine your bank account had been emptied by fraudsters as actually happened to me some years ago.

  On checking my balance I was horrified to see that several thousand pounds was missing - or absent from my account. Now, if I simply happened to be broke could I honestly claim that money I'd never had was absent from my account?

  No. There's a huge difference between something that is absent and something that does not exist.
• 

  Ruby456

  and from Karl Popper on when a theory can be ranked as scientific - it is scientific when it can establish the criteria for its own falsification. Using this method we cannot say dogmatically that God does not exist, all we can say is that he is absent.
• 

  nicolaou

  If you've quoted Sagan accurately and in context (and I'm a bit intrigued by your use of parentheses) then Sagan made an error in defining atheism - at least as far as a more modern and accurate definition of the word is concerned.

  I'm a huge fan of Carl Sagan but infallibility is not something our side attribute to any man.

  Cite your reference EdenOne.
• 

  cofty

  we cannot say dogmatically that God does not exist. - ruby

  Once you define specifically what you mean by "god" we can.
• 

  EdenOne

  Nicolaou:

  British Dictionary definitions for A-Expanda-1
  prefix 1.not; without; opposite to: atonal, asocial
  Word Origin
  from Greek a-, an- not, without

  
  

  Seems to me that 'not + god' ; or 'without + god'; or 'opposite to + god' denote a denial or refusal to acknowledge god / deity rather than denoting a skeptical view on the lack of evidence for the existence of god. Exegesis of the greek terms demands a denial or outright rejection of God. If you want to see in the term "atheist" a form of skepticism that allows for the possibility of some deity exists, then what you're doing is eisegesis.

  
  

  As for the first quote of Carl Sagan, it comes from an interview he gave to the Washington Post journalist Joel Achenbach. See the reference here.

  
  

  Eden
• 

  nicolaou

  And the spirituality Sagan speaks of has nothing to do with religion, gods or the supernatural - and you know it.

  That's 'The Fallacy of Spirituality'.