What are scriptures? .... Seriously

by wannabefree 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    This has been going around in my head recently, after reading a post by AGuest I believe, what are they?

    I mean this seriously.

    Those of you who are athiests, you are free to answer, but I do believe in God and in Jesus, so one really should answer with the assumption that they are real, even if you don't believe that, please humor me and offer a logical thought based on that assumption.

    2 Timothy 3:16,17 - probably every Witness can quote that by heart and would probably assume it meant the Bible ... but does it?

    The Bible didn't exist at the time Paul wrote his letters. Did he believe that the letters he was writing were scripture? Did he mean that as a general statement to encompass everything? Would he have had something in particular in mind that he was referring to? For example, the book of Acts, would that be inspired scripture or simply historic account of the apostles from Luke's research? (I think Luke wrote that.)

    What would Paul have meant by that?

  • milola
    milola

    I personally have a hard time believing they were inspired. I think they were books of laws as needed at the time and stories of fantasy explaining what they couldn't themselves understand.

  • Ding
    Ding

    When the NT was written, the OT canon had already been established, so reference to "scripture" meant the OT.

    In 2 Peter 3:6, Peter refers to Paul's letters and talks about "the other scriptures," indicating that he considered Paul's letters to be scripture.

  • yknot
    yknot

    I would 'assume' it to be most of the Hebrew Bible........(

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    The Bible didn't exist at the time Paul wrote his letters.

    This is inaccurate, dear wannabefree (peace to you!). Much of the Tanakh (Jewish canon of Hebrew Bible) was completed before 400 BCE, and the Septuagint (or "LXX", the Koine Greek version of Hebrew Bible) was completed in Alexandria, Egypt, before 100 BCE. They were in existence in the time of my Lord's flesh... and were considered "Bibles" or, rather, the "Scriptures." They are, in fact, the "writings" (Greek, graphe) that my Lord referred to when he said, "Woe, to you... scribes!" As to both, actually... and what all other "versions" were out there at the time.

    Did he believe that the letters he was writing were scripture?

    I cannot speak to what Paul believed when he wrote his letters (that they are merely letters and not prophecies would make be believe he didn't believe them to be "scripture"); however, given Paul's numerous errors IN them... I would say that they weren't. Because the Holy Spirit doesn't tell you to judge one day... and then not to another. Paul was a former Pharisee and had to learn things... as he LEARNED to walk by spirit and not by sight. Didn't happen for him overnight.

    Did he mean that as a general statement to encompass everything?

    Problem is... didn't matter. For Paul to say, in one place, that "All scripture is inspired and beneficial for teaching, etc."... but "whenever Moses is read a veil lies on their hearts..." is telling. For him to say, "Do you not judge those on the inside...?" in one place then, later, "Why do you judge your brother? ... Therefore, let us not be judging one another any longer..." should tell us that he was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    Would he have had something in particular in mind that he was referring to?

    The scriptures, which Christ "opened up" to his disciples... and not they to themselves. That's why John had a "revelation." A revealing. Given to him, by Christ, through the arkangel, Michael.

    For example, the book of Acts, would that be inspired scripture or simply historic account of the apostles from Luke's research? (I think Luke wrote that.)

    The latter. How do we know? Because we know that Theophilus commissioned him, not God. And we know he got his information from interviewing witnesses... not God. Scripture, however, is what writers received from God... through His Word... which Word told them to write... and bore them along by the holy spirit as they did write. That's why THEY (the writers)... didn't need anyone to be teaching THEM: because the anointing THEY received... when they were "chosen" to write and DELIVER the message... taught THEM.

    In 2 Peter 3:6, Peter refers to Paul's letters and talks about "the other scriptures," indicating that he considered Paul's letters to be scripture.

    Smile! Here is another instance of man leaning upon his own understanding. The Greek word for "scriptures"... is the SAME as the Greek word for "writings." Since Bible copyists lean upon their OWN understanding... they very often miss which definition of a word should be used where. For example, the same Greek word that refers to my Lord as the Word (capitalized)... is used for the common every day word "word" (not capitalized). So, there the verse seems to indicate Peter referring to other "scriptures," he is not. He is referring to the other "writings"... of which there were MANY. As Luke wrote:

    "Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us..." Luke 1:1

    Problem is... only four (4) were included in the Bible canon. Only ONE of them was written at/near/around the time Luke wrote his account. So, where are the other "many" accounts that Luke referred to? Probably in the back room of the back room of a back room, under the back room... of the Vatican, or Greek Orthodox Church, or some such place. Or maybe where Paul's FIRST letter to the Corinthians is reported to have gone: into the fire. Otherwise, they are out there, dear ones. These "writings." The "other" writings. But none of them are "scripture."

    I bid you all peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    In 2 Peter 3:6, Peter refers to Paul's letters and talks about "the other scriptures," indicating that he considered Paul's letters to be scripture.

    If it was Peter who wrote that. There was a large body of Petrine pseudepigrapha. Most scholars believe that 2 Peter was probably not written by the apostle.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Gleason Archer writes, "... there is hardly any epistle in the New Testament that contains more definite testimonies as to the identity and personal experience of the author than this epistle... the author of this epistle made such a definite claim to be the apostle Peter himself that it would have been grossly fraudulent and deceptive on his part if the epistle were not authentically Petrine."

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    Thanks for your comments.

    What about ....

    (Hebrews 4:12) . . .For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.

    ... Again, as a JW, I have been taught to use this verse to refer to the Bible. Does this mean written scripture or does this refer to Jesus resurrected back to the postion described in John 1:1?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Gleason Archer writes, "... there is hardly any epistle in the New Testament that contains more definite testimonies as to the identity and personal experience of the author than this epistle... the author of this epistle made such a definite claim to be the apostle Peter himself that it would have been grossly fraudulent and deceptive on his part if the epistle were not authentically Petrine."

    Which is true of most Petrine pseudepigrapha. This is not a distinguishing criterion, nor an indicator of authenticity (as pseudepigraphers often rely on personal detail to make their works seem authentic).

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Personally I have no issues with Peter having written 1 and 2 Peter :)

    Whatever one believes, Paul's letters are cited as "scripture" in the same manner as the Old Testament.

    1 Peter 2:6 (New International Version)

    6 For in Scripture it says:

    “See, I lay a stone in Zion,
    a chosen and precious cornerstone,
    and the one who trusts in him
    will never be put to shame.” [ a ]

    Footnotes:

    1. 1 Peter 2:6 Isaiah 28:16

    2 Peter 3:16 (New International Version)

    16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    With love,

    Stephen

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