Why (time and again) Jehovah's Witnesses set dates

by Terry 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Terry

  The method by which people accept God as a reality is called Faith and Belief which is a bypass exempting proof.

  Faith is seen as a virtue and lack of Faith as a moral failing.

  So, why the insistance on dragging proof into the discussion?

  Something called A isn't the same as something called not A.

  Faith is a workaround. Proof is evidence confirming fact.

  So, which is it going to be? Faith (A) or Proof (not A)?

  In my opinion, a rational person can only suspend disbelief for just so long (cognitive dissonance) before something more substantial

  becomes necessary to sustain the burden of imagination pretending to be fact.

  Think about it: Jehovah's Witnesses are built around the Armageddon scenario. Every so often they go off the reservation and actually try to place their Faith in that core belief in the realm of reality by PREDICTING a date!

  This is the desperate cry of the rational mind for Proof even if it will destroy the basis of Faith itself!

  Time and again JW's have DISproved the basis of their own Faith (Armageddon is a no-show.)

  Immediately they lapse back into a more and more intense Faith-Coma and lick their intellectual wounds and public humiliation.

  The same is true for mainstream Christians who try to establish PROOF of God through scientific inquiry.

  You simply cannot have it both ways because Faith is irreconcilable with Proof.

  A and not A won't fit inside your mind without destroying each other.
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  myelaine

  dear Terry...

  why are you "repeating" yourself...is it some kind of code?

  love michelle
• 

  MarcusScriptus

  Though I am a theist, I have to very much support Terry in what he’s saying, even if it is something he's repeating. Faith and proof are not supposed to mix. If you have proof for something, why the faith? If you faith for something, then there wouldn’t be proof. It’s not a rational thing to want to mix the two.

  But people insist on trying to do so for some reason. I think theists would at least be respected more for our views if we called them what they are. While I don’t believe it is something imaginary that I have faith in, I do reduce it to that level when I look for excuses for what I’m supposed to stand for. The scientific method can do lots of things, but it can't establish that which can't be sampled and made accessible to scientific study.

  Christianity is the religion of the reverse. Faith is considered equal to evidence. An excommunicated Jew hung on a cross is supposed to be the King of the Universe. The dead wood he hangs on is supposed to be the Tree of Life Adam and Eve were barred from. Everlasting life is found only by dying. The logic of this world is dismissed for something that cannot be conceived by rationale.

  It’s supposed to be the religion of fools. We are supposed to look stupid. The wisdom of God is supposed to be found in ways that cannot be found by mere application of human intelligence. It’s a religion not of ethical choices or scholastic exercise but of love, something that can’t be proven in any court, in any way.

  While I don’t know Terry personally (and he definitely doesn't need me or anyone to defend his convictions), but from what I’ve read of his posts he doesn’t seem the type who is still a Jehovah’s Witness in spirit, and is now “preaching atheism,” the equivalent of the type of atheist that has an agenda to prove all wrong and spread their message to all in a JW-like conversion. He does call for reason, however, and that’s a call that needs to be heard more.

  If we choose the path of faith, then we need to stick with it. An old proverbs states about conviction: "For those who have faith no proof is necessary. For those who dismiss faith, no amount of proof is possible."
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  cyberjesus

  Marcus you speak reasonable. Master Terry is the JWn's Yoda
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  Terry

  I'm struck by the fact that the Organization backed Fred Franz all the way with the very dangerous prediction of 1975 as year of great importance knowing full well how humiliating date setting had proved to be in the past.

  The rampant speculation was reinforced with constant reminders that the End of 6,000 years of human existence left only 1,000 years (of the bogus 7,000 year "Creation Day") in which the Millennium could take place.

  They painted themselves into a tight corner with no escape.

  When nothing happend--the most amazing thing ocurred: Fred Franz was then made the President of the Watchtower Society upon the death of Knorr!!

  My explanation for all that is the rational minds of these people were STARVED for proof that they are RIGHT and the only recourse was to FORCE an event which PROVED it as fact!

  Now get this: It was enough for all of them at Bethel in positions of authority that the date had been set and millions of JW's had snapped into action just AS THOUGH the date were correct! That served as proof enough---without the confirmation of events even being necessary!!

  The cognitive dissonance disorder had been treated with enough faux proof to last another half century!
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  myelaine

  dear MarcusScriptus...

  you said: "Faith and proof are not supposed to mix. If you have proof for something, why the faith?"

  the apostles had faith in their God and the scriptures until proof was provided in the way of Jesus Christ...and then, great was their faith. now we are to have faith by way of writings that they provided as proof of the appearance of Jesus Christ. do you think it unlikely that God would provide something that might be considered as proof to show some today that their faith is misplaced?...like the scripture asks...luke 18:7-8

  I think God would send a loving "provision"...

  love michelle
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  greendawn

  This is an old trick and a clever piece of psychology and we should all know by now that all these religions do not have it in them to be honest and truthful towards their members instead their fundamental mindset and intention is to deceive and promote their own interests.

  Setting dates about the end aims to keep their members under the impression that it is imminent which makes them need the organization since it is as they (falsely) believe the means to survive the coming divine anger. So it keeps the followers in which means continuing financial benefits since they provide not just cheap but free labour plus a fair amount of donations.

  To deceive 6 or 7 million people to regularly work for you for nothing is quite an achievement and only religion con artists could do this.
• 

  Ding

  Terry,

  Although in once sense the 1975 failure is a fiasco, it did energize JWs worldwide and brought in a lot of converts.

  True, they lost a lot of people when 1975 failed, but the ones who stayed are loyal Kool-Aid drinkers, as witness the 1975 deniers who post here.

  Knorr relied on Freddy for matters of doctrine, and since Freddy got the WTS into the 1975 mess, he was the one who had to get them out of it.

  In CoC, Ray says that the GB really believed the 1975 hype themselves and when it failed they were scrambling to try to figure out what went wrong.

  They couldn't acknowledge even to themselves that their whole "invisible parousia" date system is 19th century speculative nonsense dreamed up by Miller, Barbour, and Russell because that would mean their claim to be Jehovah's important anointed "faithful and discreet slave organization" is also nonsense.

  Rather than admitting that they have deluded themselves and millions of others all these years, they went right on drinking and dispensing the Kool-Aid.

  Granted, it's hard to humble oneself and go from being THE key players in the Bible's end times prophecies to being no one special at all, so their hanging on to their delusion is understandable, but it's a massive power trip that is ruining millions of lives in the process.
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  MarcusScriptus

  Michelle, while I believe in the type of evidence and proof you are speaking of, in the answer above I was speaking of “proof” in the scientific sense of the word.

  According to the scientific method, a methodology of research techniques, “proof” consists of data which can be gathered by people and manipulated by testing, such as experimentation or mere observation. Such proof is thus used to formulate or even confirm a hypothesis.

  Religious proofs, like those of which you speak, deal in the realm of transcendent reality, that which deals with the Divine. Can you gather anything from a deity that could be manipulated by a human under test? That which we humans can take samples of and manipulate for test could not transcend us. Therefore any data or sample we have as proof of a “deity” would immediately prove that the subject was not divine. That which is divine should NOT be able to be sampled or manipulated by mere human beings. God is not subject to such testing. Therefore this type of “proof” regarding God does not exist.

  This is the serious problem that not only involves the Watchtower but a lot of religious people who tend to mix religious “proofs” into the same realm as proof in the scientific sense.

  That is what we call in both the scientific and religious worlds “a big no-no.”

  Again, while I agree and to some degree practice what you are stating, I was not speaking of that at all. Terry’s points regarding proof are “apples,” and the type you are speaking of are “oranges.”
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  Terry

  At heart, most of us know that simply earnestly believing in something isn't enough to sustain anybody sane over the long haul.

  Hope, after all, gets us through hard times. If we had nothing to look forward to when times were rough--why would we go on, after all?

  Hope is the spare tire in the trunk.

  But, when we break down on the side of life's road there damn sure better actually BE a spare tire in that trunk when we need it!

  There are many many psychological substitutes for evidence that what we hope for is somehow real and true and certain.

  Being made fun of for believing can drive us deeper into our delusion and make us band together with like-minded persons.

  So "persectution" is sort of like a confirmation we are "on the right track" as it were. This overlooks the fact that being made fun of for crazy belief is not that far-fetched when we are wrong in the first place.

  Another substitute is harboring revenge fantasies and looking forward to the day everybody who made fun of us will suddenly be very sorry they did so!

  Being smarter than those who disagree with us boosts our self-esteem, too. We know something very important and the others are clueless!

  Taking our message to the clueless gives us a mission and sense of purpose and makes us the good guys for even bothering with those unappreciative losers!

  Finally, there is the self-knowledge that we are humble enough to be wrong and strong enough to continue through many disconfirmations and humiliations.

  So being a big loser yet maintaining a stalward and impervious FAITH has its merits after all!