Really great post. I love it also that you are an elder and I love the way you reasoned on things. Thanks
LITS
Attention Born in Lurkers
by stuckinamovement 37 Replies latest jw friends
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Red Piller
In retrospect all the warning signs were there that something was wrong.
I see the quality of elders really low. When I was a kid, they had families, jobs, businesses. Now these weird loners, yes-men, and perpetually unemployed seem to climb to the top. They can't run their own life but have plenty of advice for me.
Yes, everyone is worn out. I liken it to an army that is always on high alert for an expected attack and is continually woken up at midnight to run special emergency drills. How, many years can you do that and not affect morale and stamina? You can't sprint on adrenaline for decades on end.
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TimeBandit
What do you mean when you say Jesus is NOT our mediator, despite what 1 Tim. 2:5,6 says? Can you point me to evidence to that statement?
Thanks.
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flipper
STUCKINAMOVEMENT- Wow ! Excellent thread by you ! I think you just about covered everything but the kitchen sink in your post. Good job. Any of you lurkers please read carefully what he wrote and please know that many of us are here for you if you choose to inform yourself and have doubts and feel you need to vent . We'll be here to catch you with a soft landing spot
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DanaBug
What do you mean when you say Jesus is NOT our mediator, despite what 1 Tim. 2:5,6 says? Can you point me to evidence to that statement?
No problem!
"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" pp. 10-11
"Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians? ? So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians. ?The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant." Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31
"They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."-1 Pet. 2:9. 24 Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.-Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. 25 To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men""He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.362 Mediator
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DanaBug
Compare to Scripture, any mention of 144,000 or mediation for different classes? The new covenant was made for forgiveness of sins and no one but Jesus can, as Mediator, apply that to mankind. No one.
1 Timothy 2:5,6 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"
Acts 13:38-39 "Let it therefore be known to YOU, brothers, that through this One a forgiveness of sins is being published to YOU; 39 and that from all the things from which YOU could not be declared guiltless by means of the law of Moses, everyone who believes is declared guiltless by means of this One."
Hebrews 9:15, 28 "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, ? 28so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation."
Romans 3:21-30 "But now apart from law God's righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22 yes, God's righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. ? 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also?"
Ephesians 1:7 "By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."
Hebrews 8:10-12 "'For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. 11 "'And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: "Know Jehovah!" For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.'"Matthew 26:27-28 "Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."
Added
John 6:53-56 " 53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
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LV101
so enjoyed reading.
LV101
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stuckinamovement
Danabug, thanks for the help in responding to TimeBandit.
Thanks to all for your responses and feedback. As mentioned I am an active witness who is trying to act on what my conscience tells me to do. The fact that I am a born in makes it tremendously hard because everything that I know and everyone who I know is closely linked to the organization. If you are a lurker, expect a great deal of inner turmoil as you review the foundations of your existence. You might lose sleep, you will be agitated, but after those things pass you will have a measure of peace because you examined the scriptures to see whether or not the things that you have been taught are true.
Some other thoughts....
Jehovah or Jesus never said in the Bible that they would create or use an earthly organization. In fact Jesus said that where two or three were gathered in his name he would be with them. The WTBS has assumed the role of God's earthly organization by self assertion. It is true that Jehovah is a God of order, but there is no mention in the scriptures of a worldwide organization.
Unity of thought is not required in the scriptures. Love for God, his Son, and your neighbor is required.
It is sad that good people have to bury their sincere questions, honest feelings and thoughts to avoid being prosecuted by the Organization. The fact that you cannot question your own beliefs openly should say something to you about "God's organization". Jehovah never intended his servants to be cowed by fear of man or a manufactured religious corporation. He wants us to serve him with love and freedom. Remember, we should serve God alone, not an organization of man.
Take Care,
SIAM
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DanaBug
Unity of thought is not required in the scriptures. Love for God, his Son, and your neighbor is required.
It is sad that good people have to bury their sincere questions, honest feelings and thoughts to avoid being prosecuted by the Organization. The fact that you cannot question your own beliefs openly should say something to you about "God's organization". Jehovah never intended his servants to be cowed by fear of man or a manufactured religious corporation. He wants us to serve him with love and freedom. Remember, we should serve God alone, not an organization of man.
This is where I'm at. Everything I've studied in the Bible, on my own, points to accepting Jesus as the main requirement. He is the way, the truth, and the life. That's the only way to have salvation, eternal life, according to the Bible. It's actually really simple. We accept Jesus as Savior, are baptized in his name, and follow his example, namely love God with your whole heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Now the specifics of following that are open to interpretation, but that's where the bible trained conscience comes in. We do our best according to our understanding and knowledge motivated by our love for God, and certainly He takes that into account. It's completely personal, between the individual and God, not dictated by someone else. That's the freedom Paul was talking about. The Society takes that freedom and chokes it under a lot of arbitrary and petty laws based on their interpretation of the Bible, some of them not even found in the Bible; and they add a heavy dose of guilt and fear. They remind me of Pharisees.
You might lose sleep, you will be agitated, but after those things pass you will have a measure of peace because you examined the scriptures to see whether or not the things that you have been taught are true.
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truthlover
SIAM:
I agree with all you state -- it is not the "truth" we started out with.. now we are stuck, so to speak.. new light is appearing -- i.e. generation -- well, one of the GB just passed away-that was the last of the old timers who saw/understood 1914 -- with them gone, we were supposed to be gone too.. not so.. now -- the "generation" thinking is overlapping with newbie GB members being brought in, we have to stay around til the second sealing and the choosing will THEN be complete-the other point is that when that occurs -they are all supposed to be in heaven -well the society says some will still be on earth - go figure...
Now the Annointed - as you state-they are increasing - so now they are no longer replacements for some who may have gone astray - when!! -- If 300 strayed, then 300 would come in to replace, the numbers would stay the same or reduced as death took them,hence the numbers would drop -- not so... no explanation --
Creation days - now aeons long, even tho they said this a looong time ago, they are now bringing it back to the forefront -- so with aeons of time in the pre human creation -- how does that tie in with the 6,000 years(days) for our freedom on the 7,000th year(day)?? That was all based on the creative time periods - so does that mean, we have aeons to go before the new system now?
Preaching work--what about the book of life or scroll of Life in which all those who are to receive life are written? -Does this mean that we are waiting for those are yet to be born, then the end will come, so it does not matter how much we preach, would these ones automatically see Jehovah's love and put faith in Jesus death?
And Yes, Jesus is my mediator -- he can mediate for the 144,000 but he can also meadiate for me and you and anyone who puts faith in his sacrifice - the Bible tells me so.. I remember that song from my sunday school!
And that is my thoughts for today.... it is a struggle but I believe Jehovah/Yahweh knows all our hearts and knows we are troubled and will give us peace, in whatever form it comes, and this board, when all is said and done, is a great help
Danabug:
Today, when you are baptized, you are not baptized with the Holy Spirit included in question 1 - where it is supposed to say - In the name of the Father, The Son AND the Holy Spirit---Matt 28:19,20 ---- which we recently have had two WT's saying this is what is included -- but it is NOT
Check out the questions for baptism and see where in question 2 - they have inserted a vow for you to be loyal to God's earthly organization"...