JW's Came to the Door

by pr0ner 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Good work, Pr0ner!!!

    I wish that someone would tackle the next JW who comes to their door with the paganism actually INCORPORATED into the bible and into Jewish and Christian beliefs, however....

    I've always wondered what a JW's reaction would be, if one pointed out that:

    It is likely that the "Twelve Tribes" of "Israel" were actually based upon the TWELVE SIGNS OF THE ZODIAC - and some of the symbols come from the CHINESE Zodiac, as well as the Greco-Egyptian-Roman Zodiac....

    12 signs of the Chinese Zodiac...

    Rat Ox Tiger Hare Dragon Snake Horse Ram Monkey Rooster Dog Pig

    12 signs of the Grecian/Egyptian Zodiac - derived from the Grecian Zodiac - which the Egyptians borrowed... http://www.egyptianmyths.net/zodiac.htm

    Ram (Aries) Bull or Ox (Taurus) Twins (Geminii) Cancer (Crab or Scarab beetle) Leo (Lion) Aquarius (water-bearer) Virgo (Virgin or Isis) Libra (Scales or the holder of scales/weights) Scorpio (Scorpion) Sagittarius (centaur, archer, with a scorpion's tail) Capricorn (goat with the body of a fish or seal) and Pices (two fishes; which is also the symbol of several sea-goddesses...)

    And the 12 tribe of Israel from Genesis chapter 49, verses 1-28, Holman Christian Standard bible....

    (verse 3) "Reuben, you are my firstborn.... Turbulent as water, you will no longer excel...."

    (verse 5-7) "Simeon & Levi are brothers; their knives are vicious weapons. ...For in their anger they kill men and on a whim they hamstring oxen..." These count as TWO tribes, by the way...

    (verse 8-12) "Judah...is a young lion - ... he croushes; he lies down like a lion and like a lioness - who wants to rouse him? ..."

    (verse 13) "Zebulun will live by the seasore and wll be a harbor for ships..."

    (verse 14) "Issachar is a strong donkey lyig down between the saddlebags..."

    (verse 16-17) "Dan will judge his people...He will be a snake by the road, a viper beside the path..."

    (verse 19) "Gad will be attacked by marauding bands, but he will attack their heels..."

    (verse 20) "Asher's food will be rich, and he will produce royal delicacies..."

    (verse 21) "Naphtali is a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns..."

    (verse 22-24) "Joseph is a fruitful vine,...The archers attacked him, shot at him, and were hostile toward him. Yet his bow remained steady..."

    (verse 27) "Benjamin is a wolf; he tears, in the morning he devours the prey..."

    Now, let's do some matching up... Keeping in mind that the Israelites probably didn't become privy to the higher secrets of astrology in the lands where they were dominated or held captive...

    "Reuben" corresponds with the water-bearer, Aquarius.

    "Simeon and Levi" don't seem to correspond with any symbols, but that's only within the Genesis count of the "12" tribes; I'll have to find other listings of the tribes with their "totem" symbols... Although the reference to their "hamstring oxen" may connect them with the Ox in the Chinese Zodiac... May also connect with the rold of the Persian deity Mithra or Mithras, who symbolically slays a celestial "bull"....

    "Judah" obviously corresponds with Leo - or the Tiger in the Chinese Zodiac...

    "Zebulun" is a bit of a puzzle... If any of the other Zodiac signs correspond with the sea, water, storms... I'll have to research further...

    "Issachar" would probably correspond with the Horse in the Chinese Zodiac...

    "Dan" - is the one which first drew my attention to the similarities between the "12 tribes" of Israel and the Zodiac symbols - corresponds with the Snake in the Chinese Zodiac. May also correspond with the Capricorn symbol... I'll have to research further...

    "Gad" is a bit of a puzzle... It is significant, however, that he is spoken of as attacking marauders "at their heels" - which would indicate a low-level or ground-dwelling symbolic animal... Perhaps the Dragon in the Chinese Zodiac, the underground "dragons" thought by the Chinese to cause earthquakes...

    "Asher" is also a puzzle... I'll have to research further...

    "Naphtali" is really weird. Jacob's comparing his SON to a FEMALE deer... The Ram occurs in BOTH Zodiacs, but is a MALE deer or sheep...

    "Joseph" seems a puzzle at first, until one reads "Yet his bow remains steady..." That corresponds with Sagittarius - a 'centaur' and archer...

    "Benjamin" would probably correspond with the Dog in the Chinese Zodiac....

    However, the fact that the bible mentions "12" tribes, but that ten of these "12" tribes disappeared later in the history of the Hebrews, is significant. It appears to me, that the Israelite peoples eventually realized the pagan origins of their "12 tribe" arrangement, and eliminated that arrangemen because it was loosely based upon the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

    These are really rough comparisons, and I haven't taken into consideration the complex astrological positioning of each 'sign'... I'd need to look at ALL references to the 12 tribes that also reference their 'symbols', plus research the astrological positioning, to get a more accurate picture.

    Then there's the "Rod of Asclepius", as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

    "The rod of Asclepius (?; sometimes also spelled Asklepios or Aesculapius), also known as the asklepian,[1] is an ancient symbol associated with astrology, the Greek god Asclepius, and with medicine and healing. It consists of a serpent entwined around a staff. The name of the symbol derives from its early and widespread association with Asclepius, the son of Apollo, who was a practitioner of medicine in ancient Greek mythology. His attributes, the snake and the staff, sometimes depicted separately in antiquity, are combined in this symbol.[2] The Rod of Asclepius also represents the constellation Ophiuchus (or Ophiuchus Serpentarius), considered by some to be the thirteenth sign of the sidereal zodiac. ..."

    rod

    Look familiar???? Check out that with Numbers 21: 4-9, wherein "Moses" mounted a "snake [image] and mount it on a pole...So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole....."

    So, "god" commanded "Moses" to create a pagan symbol, the "Rod of Asclepius", to 'save' the Israelites from the deadly snake bites...

    Another significant "pagan" belief incorporated into biblical beliefs - remember "Jesus" being in the "grave" for three days and three nights???

    Some two thousand years BEFORE "jesus" supposedly spent 3 days and nights in the 'grave' before being resurrected, the Goddess Inanna spent THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the "underworld", before being 'rescued' by one of her subordinate demi-goddesses...

    Then there's the Greek/Roman (and represented in other cultures...) god, Dionysys. This website: http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/wine_born_in_greece/ mentions the imbibing of the wine as a representation of Dionysys' blood...

    "Wine, a divine beverage, was the gift of Dionysus, which some say was his same blood. In particular in ancient Greece, for example, red wine was drunk at the bacchanals by the devotees of the god Dionysus in a symbolic ritual of his blood. It is significant that red wine is the colour of blood and wine emerged as the principal symbol of Dionysus, representing also the fullness of life. During the spring festival, the drinking of wine was the most prominent feature, representing the very presence of the god. ..." Which pre-dates the Christian mimicry of this ritual by many hundreds of years...

    I could keep going, with the Israelites mistaking a volcanic eruption for the presence of their "god" - which may actually be a legend borrowed from the surrounding "pagan" nations or tribal groups; the Plinian eruption of Vesuvius that probably inspired much of the apocalyptic imagery of the book of Revelation, and vestiges of Goddess worship incorporated into both the Old Testament and New Testament, but I don't have time, right now...

    At least I've given all of you a taste of what you might be able to use, at the door, next time a JW calls and talks to you about the pagan origins of Christmas....

    Zid

  • Botzwana
    Botzwana

    YES.....As Issac used to say with much glee....ENJOY YOUR TIME AT JEHOVAHSWITNESS.NET!!!!

    LOL! It's so funny now but it irritated me at the time.

  • chiguy2010
    chiguy2010

    When shown that celebrating the birth of Jesus had actually become of greater interest to people than the ransom provided by his death; that the revelry of the holiday and the spirit in which many gifts were given did not honor God; that the magi whose gift-giving was being imitated were actually demon-inspired astrologers; that parents set an example for their children in lying by what they told them about Santa Claus; that “St. Nicholas” (Santa Claus) was admittedly another name for the Devil himself; and that such festivals were, as acknowledged by Cardinal Newman in his EssayontheDevelopmentofChristianDoctrine, “the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship” the church had adopted—when made aware of these things, Jehovah’s Witnesses promptly and permanently stopped having any part in Christmas celebrations

  • laverite
    laverite

    A few days ago two JW women (both in their late forties, maybe?) came to my door. When I opened it, the one who was doing the speaking said that they were out in their "Christian Ministry." I asked what church they were with (I knew exactly what organization they were with!), and the woman indicated that they were JWs. I said "Oh. Well, with your organization's track record of failed prophecies, why should anyone listen to what you have to say?" She just looked at me and didn't say a word. I continued with a list of dates, and when I got to 1975 said "Stay alive till 75!" I then went on to mention that their organization is now well known to have changed its definition of what consitutes a "generation" -- a definition that makes no logical sense whatsoever. It's their own newly created definition that no one else shares fabricated out of thin air to hold to a prediction that didn't come true.

    I ended by restating "When you have such an incredibly high failure rate for false prophecies, why would I ever want to hear what your organization says about anything?"

    They never said a word after "Christian Ministry" and left quietly. I wasn't rude. My voice was calm (but confident), and I spoke fluently. They seemed to be in shock.

    Despite their organization's failures, I did thank them for their visit. They seemed nice enough.

  • sherah
    sherah

    This thread rocks!!! Proner, Outlaw, IsaacA and Laverite are reppin' the apostates well.

  • laverite
    laverite

    Love ya Sherah!

  • laverite
    laverite

    I do want to make it clear that I would never speak harshly to any witness who comes to my door. My family is in. And I was a "born -in" so I get what they are doing and why, etc.

    I spoke confidently, quickly and was careful to not be rude. I did thank them for their visit. I was cordial but very confident in what I was saying. Gosh, were they ever surprised...

    Kinda wanted to hug them though. What I really wanted to say was: "Snap out of it! Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, ladies. There's a better life out there. It's awesome to be able to use your own brain instead of relying on a small group of old men in Brooklyn to do your thinking for you." Hey, maybe I'll say that if I get an RV from them.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Chiguy2010 wrote, " When shown that celebrating the birth of Jesus had actually become of greater interest to people than the ransom provided by his death; that the revelry of the holiday and the spirit in which many gifts were given did not honor God; that the magi whose gift-giving was being imitated were actually demon-inspired astrologers; that parents set an example for their children in lying by what they told them about Santa Claus; that “St. Nicholas” (Santa Claus) was admittedly another name for the Devil himself; and that such festivals were, as acknowledged by Cardinal Newman in his EssayontheDevelopmentofChristianDoctrine, “the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship” the church had adopted—when made aware of these things, Jehovah’s Witnesses promptly and permanently stopped having any part in Christmas celebrations."

    1. Why didn't Jehovah condemn Mary and Joseph for accepting these gifts from "demon-inspired astrologers"? Why did the angels join in singing on the day Jesus was born?

    2. Why did it take so long for the FDS to realize all these things?

    3. Did the FDS need a Roman Catholic cardinal's statement to alert / convince them?

    4. Why are you reading the writings of a Roman Catholic cardinal anyway? Isn't that demon-inspired literature of Christendom?

  • chiguy2010
    chiguy2010

    Ding, you just remained me of the counsel at Matt 7:6

    Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.

    Thanks

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Great - another apologetic JW comes on here and judges everyone around him with a false air of authority. Chi you have 4 posts under your belt. You label someone swine. Yet apparently, the association and literature and meetings of the Watchtower is not enough for you. You still feel the need to be on this site, associating and discussing your religion with ones you deem "swine". That's nice. Someone remind why I am not a JW again?

    For a reference - the context of this part of the sermon on the mount: Matt 7:1-5 - Chi - you just reminded me of this counsel:

    1 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. a The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. b

    3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye c when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend, d ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.

    Way to take a scripture out of context. But it's how you were taught so you win a prize.

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