The New Covenant Discussion

by Listener 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Listener
    Listener

    I left the org many years ago as a teenager. I started looking more closely at their doctrines a few months ago to work out if they really have the truth. When I cam across the notion that Jesus is not mediator for everyone I was startled and have been looking at the issue a lot more closely. The more I look into it the more I see how it is tied up to so much and it gets rather complex.

    I was speaking to a JW who visits On his last visit I said I had a serious problem with the idea that JC was not mediator to everyone and I had read it in older literature. He said they would have to look at that and get back to me but explained that Jesus did act as mediator because our prayers were made through him as mediator. He explained that there was a different relationship with the annointed and this was because of the covenant.

    I've been doing some JW reasearch about the covenant and I am getting a little confused. It makes me realise just how difficult the org makes it to try to understand their concepts. I cannot find one definition of theirs that clearly and plainly defines what the covenant is even though there is a lot of discussion about what it achieves and who it applies to. A simple google search provided a clear and precise definition. I think they will probably say to me that JC is our mediator for the purpose of approaching God but not in relation to the covenant.

    Just to complicate things slightly I've been looking at some of their articles that discuss the new covenant and they talk about their being two. Here is a quote from the W 2003 2/15

    "........19 Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 15:14) This “everlasting covenant” provides for all spiritual Israelites to be resurrected to immortal life in heaven.—Hebrews 13:20.
    20 The anointed are sure of their hope. They have been taken into an additional covenant, the Kingdom covenant. Concerning their sharing with Christ, Jesus said: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” (Luke 22:28-30) This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5........"

    So they talk about their being the new covenant which provides their heavently hope then in the next paragraph they talk about there being another covenant - that is the Kingdom covenant
    Also from 98 2/1

    "...When mediating the new covenant, Jesus made an additional covenant with his followers, saying: “I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” (Luke 22:29) This Kingdom covenant put things in place for the fulfillment of a remarkable vision, recorded at Daniel 7:13, 14, 22, 27. Daniel saw “someone like a son of man” being given kingly authority by “the Ancient of Days,” Jehovah God. Then Daniel saw that “the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” Jesus is the one “like a son of man” who, in 1914, received the heavenly Kingdom from Jehovah God. His spirit-anointed disciples are “the holy ones” who share with him in that Kingdom. (1 Thessalonians 2:12) How?....".

    I guess it doesn't really matter as both look like they think it applies only to the annointed. So now if we are looking at two different covenants then I know I am going to get utterly confused when talking to this JW again and don't think I'm up to it and it doesn't really matter. What does matter is my own understanding.

    I have read a few of comments and stuff from other sites on the internet about it and have come to the conclusion that I think it is wrong that the new covenant is told as being between only Jesus and the annointed. Now I would find it a little more credible if they said that it is specficially the covenant (or the promise) that god made with the annointed that they would come to heaven but the covenant is so much more than that. Of course their standard view is that we can all benefit from this covenant but it really just makes that a whole lot of nonsense and it is a gross play on words.

    Another issue that really phases me is the idea that for the great crowd, if you are alive at Armageddon you will be judged at that time and then again at the end of a thousand years when you have the chance of becoming immortal. Regardless of the concept, the important issue here is that this second judgement doesn't come until you as a person have reached perfection and then the final judgement will be made (and it is reaching this perfection that is all important for the final judgement). Whereas the annointed are chosen as imperfect humans and once they die in their imperfect state on earth (but as faithfull ones) they are automtically given immortality in heaven, there is no further judgement once they have attained perfection and proven themselves in their perfect state. This does not make any sense, especially when you consider that you can be in heaven and still unfaithful to God, just as Satan was.

    Also tied up with this is their idea that only the annointed share in the memorial (Lord's evening meal) whether they are referring this to be because of the new covenant arrangement or the additional covenant (as they mention in the quote above which they call the Kingdom covenant), I don't know. But what they do say is that only the annointed along with God and Jesus are considered to be "Spiritual Israel". So these covenants are with spiritual Israel, just as the old covenant was with Israel, Moses being mediator. This means the great crowd cannot be part of this new Kingdom made valid through the death of Jesus

    It makes no sense that we are all excluded from the Kingdom of God even though Jesus' death was for this reason, the Hebrew scriptures were written so that he could share this great news with us. According to the org we can only benefit by this new Kingdom. But surely this new Kingdom would mean all mankind have the opportunity of being part of it. I'm sure the JWs would say that of course we can be part of it, God's Kingdom will be for all those faithfull. The problem is that they already exclude everyone else other than the annointed. How can they explain this? Is there something that I am not understanding in relation to the New Covenant?

    I would appreciate your thoughts.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Their New Covenant can NEVER make any sense, because its really very simple and contradicts their pyramid hierarchy: The law is written on hearts, not on paper, and its far superior to the Law of Moses. In fact it works perfectly. So , it's clearly a personal thing, no middlemen. The only thing that makes sense to me is that it was the Key of Knowledge (Gnosis) that the Pharisees took away. Looks like they're still at it.

    ~PS

  • Listener
    Listener

    That explains why they don't want Jesus to be the mediator of the great crowd, that way can replace themselves as the middleman and boldly say that unless you are a JW in their one and only true religion, you will be destoyed.

  • designs
    designs

    Listener- the problem is the NT, keep studying you'll come out on the otherside

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The New convenant is very simple:

    People suck.

    God knows this and loves us anyways.

    People suck and because of that suckage, they fuck up everything they do because, at their core, people suck.

    God knows this and loves us anyways.

    People suck, and and they know they suck and this knowledhe compells them to try to make up for this suckage but they do it because they want soemthing from the attempted "fix", and this "compromised intention" is counter-productive to what they try to do, because they suck.

    God knows this and loves us anyways.

    What does this have to do with the new covenant?

    Easy:

    It is that love from God and the self-awareness that we suck and that there is nothing we can do about that suckage, that saves us and the knowledge that we are saved by God's Love and Grace that compells us to love each other "unconditionally" also.

    The new convenant is that ALL that love each other and do good works out of love and not for recomepense or because the law ( any law) demands it, these people through Christ, will be God's children and God will be their father.

  • Ding
    Ding

    It is amazing that the WTS prides itself on bringing people "the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom."

    Yet if their teaching were correct only 144,000 actually enter because they are the only ones who are "born again."

    (Jesus told Nicodemus that unless a person is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God -- John 3:3).

    Like the Pharisees, they shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces (Matthew 23:13).

    The WTS' two class system (anointed / other sheep) is a complete misunderstanding of the NT.

    They take Jesus' "little flock" comment from Luke 12:32 from its context and equate that with a completey unrelated passage -- the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 -- and say that only these people can be born again.

    Nowhere does the Bible say this.

    In fact, in The Finished Mystery (1918), the WTS taught that there are FOUR classes of believers -- two heavenly for all CE believers in Christ and two earthly for all BCE faithful Jews.

    In other words, the WTS is not a reliable guide to Bible understanding.

    By contrast, the Holy Spirit is available to ALL who come to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. Acts 2:38-39.

    If "great crowd" JWs aren't in the new covenant, what covenant ARE they in?

    The old (law) covenant is obsolete and has been replaced. Hebrews 8:13

    In John 6:53-54, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    The Memorial is a physical symbol of this inward experience.

    Unfortunately, every year 99.9% of Jehovah's Witnesses get together and by not partaking testify that they do not have this gift of eternal life of which Christ was speaking because by their own testimony they have not been born again.

    Becoming a child of God by faith in Christ is not just an experience reserved for 144,000; it available to ALL who will receive him. John 1:12

    If anyone would like to discuss this further by way of PM, I'll be glad to chat with you.

  • jonathan dough
  • jonathan dough
  • freydo
    freydo

    The NC is to be made with Israel and Judah - not Gentiles.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Freydo wrote: "The NC is to be made with Israel and Judah - not Gentiles."

    Ephesians 2:11-20: "Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from
    citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His
    purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who
    were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

    Ephesians 3:4-6: "In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

    Acts 11:15-18: "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" 18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

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