The New Covenant Discussion

by Listener 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tec

  Designs.... were there not different views/sects in Judaism at the time of Christ? PSac has said before that a couple of friends of his - a Jewish scholar and a rabbi - say that there were different views on different matters. And if Judaism was going through (or even just had gone through) some sort of reform, doesn't different views stand to reason?

  As for Paul - he was often an apostle to the gentiles, so the things he taught were new - to them.

  As for Christ - the things he taught about the law might not have all been new - he UPHELD the law - but he taught and lived them without hypocrisy, and he brought that to the poor (ones who would be often overlooked) The new covenant was certainly new... and yes, even the NT makes it obvious that the jews believed in the resurrection, and why not? Its in the scriptures.

  But what about the belief in a spiritual kingdom? What about the Son of God? What about those joined as brothers with Him, to rule/serve/minister with Him? What about sins being blotted out completely (no time-out for bad behavior) due to faith in Him, and/or His mercy?

  Christ is the image of God. We see God, by seeing His Son. We know God, by knowing His Son. Not just because of what He taught, but because of how He lived and loved.

  Even now, Designs, you must admit that Judaism has different sects and beliefs in matters such as the afterlife or the Messiah, over land and fighting, etc?

  Tammy
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  designs

  Hi Tammy- Yes Judaism had many levels of Beliefs, ask Moshe, and it did in the time of Jesus. There were strict Observant sects, Monastic sects, End Times sects and just good ol plain folks living the 'Golden Rule' everyday.

  The 'spiritual kingdom' or the 'Kingdom within' had been taught in Jewish circles for centuries. The mention of it in Mark's Gospel is not new it just sounds new because credit was not given to the authors. One of the many things I discovered as I ventured into Judaism. The 'new covenant' in 'Paul's' Epistles is a totally different take than if you asked a Jew who would see it as spiritual renewal or in the 'World to Come' as God setting all things in harmony between heaven and earth, not the collapse of Judaism as this Paul suggests. What you get the sense of from 'Paul' is that the Jewish community wasn't having it from Paul and he reconfigures his message to a new audience unfamilar with the intricacies of Judaism and couldn't readily catch him with his proverbial pants down.

  From a Jewish perspective one wouldn't need a God/Man to draw them close to God, their concepts of the Bat Kol and the ways God interacts had philosophically been resolved. In christian theology the God/Man concept is the anchor without which the faith falls apart, there is not really a backup program like there is in Judaism or other Belief systems.

  Regards
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  streets76

  People suck and because of that suckage, they fuck up everything they do because, at their core, people suck.

  God knows this and loves us anyways.

  NO, (most) people are fucked up because other people convince them that they suck based on some fucked up ancient scriblings of wayward bronze-age goat herders. "No worries, Jesus came to unfuck you. Here, read all about it."

  Give me a fucking break.
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  Listener

  Reading some of the quoted material brought to mind the penalty that was imposed for those not participating in the passover. It brought into question what was the loss for not participating in the passover.

  John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

  The term 'no life in you' is explained by the JWs to mean W 2003 9/15 '

  "Rather, internal completeness, or fullness, is indicated. Thus, the expression “life in yourselves” used at John 6:53 simply means entering into the very fullness of life."

  Therefore the great crowd/other sheep cannot experience this.
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  PSacramento

  The 'new covenant' in 'Paul's' Epistles is a totally different take than if you asked a Jew who would see it as spiritual renewal or in the 'World to Come' as God setting all things in harmony between heaven and earth, not the collapse of Judaism as this Paul suggests. What you get the sense of from 'Paul' is that the Jewish community wasn't having it from Paul and he reconfigures his message to a new audience unfamilar with the intricacies of Judaism and couldn't readily catch him with his proverbial pants down.

  You got most of it right, The New Covenant was not accepted by the Jewish people ( well, not most of them and not especially the ones with the most to loss- the ruling priestly heiarchy), but Paul didn't need to reconfigure anything for the Gentiles, they couldn't of cared less if the Jews rejected it, it would have actually been a selling point.

  Problem is that Paul still makes it explicit that "salvation comes from the Jews".

  From a Jewish perspective one wouldn't need a God/Man to draw them close to God, their concepts of the Bat Kol and the ways God interacts had philosophically been resolved. In christian theology the God/Man concept is the anchor without which the faith falls apart, there is not really a backup program like there is in Judaism or other Belief systems.

  The "point" of the Christian prespective is that the Jewish one was wrong.

  Of course it is prefectly fine for any jew to disagree with that.
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  PSacramento

  NO, (most) people are fucked up because other people convince them that they suck based on some fucked up ancient scriblings of wayward bronze-age goat herders. "No worries, Jesus came to unfuck you. Here, read all about it."

  Give me a fucking break.

  Obviously you are entitiled to belive that, though I don't get the need for profanity, but to each their own.

  I've seen enough people "fucked up" without the need of anyone telling them anything.

  By the way, even though my post was worded in jest, the point of it was to express my view that people do tend to suck and by suck I mean people do tend to be selfish, sel-centered and prone to doing what is wrong even when they know it is wrong.

  That doesn't mean that they are NOT basicaly good ( notice I did not say people are evil or bag, just that they sucked).
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  tec

  In christian theology the God/Man concept is the anchor without which the faith falls apart, there is not really a backup program like there is in Judaism or other Belief systems.

  You are absolutely right that the Christian faith falls apart without Christ. No back up plan. No just in case. But why should the truth need a back-up plan?

  Tammy
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  designs

  Hi Tammie-

  There are a couple of issues with the christian thesis for salvation centering on 1. the God/Man who dies to save humanity that believe in him. 2. the New Covenant being redefined from its Jewish origins. 3. the penalty for rejecting Jesus.

  Now you have to match up in Jewish Literature the plans for saving humanity that were already in place and compare. The misinformation about Judaism in the NT shows an intentional subversion of Gentile's perceptions toward the religion that spawned Christianity- sort of like us sitting in a Watchtower study and being told half truths and half facts.

  On the lesser end misinformation messes with your life, on the more egregious end people lost their lives because Christian Zealots went on a killing spree against our ancestors for being 'Christ Killers'. Remember the lovely battle cry that some sicko Bishop had inserted in the Gospels- 'His blood be upon us'.
• 

  PSacramento

  On the lesser end misinformation messes with your life, on the more egregious end people lost their lives because Christian Zealots went on a killing spree against our ancestors for being 'Christ Killers'. Remember the lovely battle cry that some sicko Bishop had inserted in the Gospels- 'His blood be upon us'.

  And in the very same NT, in the actual words of Christ we have Jesus saying, "Love thy enemy".

  Contridiction?

  No, not even close.

  Everyone likes to say that Christianity is about the "golden rule" and that the rule is nothing new, but the fact is Christianity takes that rule to the next level, Christianity is NOT about love they neighbour, it is about love they enemy.

  The Bishop who said that suffered from what I and many others like to call "Lack of Christ" and those the followed his "war cry" suffered from that very same "illness".

  Luke 6:27-36

  [27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

  [32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
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  designs

  PS-

  One of the itsy bitsy problems with Luke 6 is that the Jewish Sages had been teaching this for centuries, this particular 'Jesus' makes it sound like its his idea- Not.

  The two basic problems with this particular claimant to being the Messiah is that he's gone and didn't accomplish the duties of the Messiah as outlined in Judaism (from which it is supposedly drawn) and this particular claimant does something unthinkable in Judaism he tells people he will send some to eternal torture.

  Now any half knowledgeable Jew knows those two things are a Big Red Flag.

  Now the out would be that the Greek Bishops rewrote the script for this 'Jew' and put words into his mouth he never said or should have said as a 'Jew'.