Why I think the Borg will have another enemy soon.

by Mindchild 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    I don't know how much you have been keeping up with A.I. but it is a whole different ball game these days and the paradigm has changed dramatically in the way to go about making intelligent machines. There is NO programing now. Neural nets learn to see for themselves by interaction with the real world

    Nonsense. Neural networks have become slightly more complex, but they're still programmed. They don't "learn to see by themselves", they're trained for pattern recognition in a way that could be called artificial selection, or breeding. Same with GAs.

    What's changed - although that's been happening quite a while ago - is the "paradigm" (gosh, I hate this word) of central control, i.e. most current AI/A-Life research is based on systems of more or less weakly coupled, relatively simple components. Since the resulting behaviour is often unpredictable (at least practically unpredictable), this is sometimes called "emergent computing". Another buzzword, some very interesting and useful results, but no great breakthroughs in sight so far. Anyone remember the "fuzzy computing" hype?

    f.

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    Abaddon, I really don't know how creative A.I. will be either. I've read a lot of different perspectives but one thing that seems to be for sure is that if they do reach the level of conciousness and self awareness, they will not be doing so from a human perspective and may be very alien to us. I think this is more plausible than seeing the Holywood style themes of computers who want to become human. I do think they will want to become robotic and mobile, but our worldviews, sense of creativity, morals, and more comes from flesh and blood. They will have none of that instinctual or genetic influences or the history to fall back on. That is a sobering thought.

    It could very well be that we judge them creative and insightful but at the same time we might be terrified of them. I do know this based on human nature though, is that we will build them anyway because we will hope they have answers to our problems. Perhaps one of the new problems then will be, do we like their answers?

    Hey Jan, I know you are into computers a lot too. Yes, we don't really understand consciousness but hey, if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...well you get the picture. haha Maybe true AI won't come from human hands. It might come from the machines themselves using a combination of programing and evolutionary algorhytms to create something more sophisticated and capable of working in the world. Maybe we will be so terrified of true AI we will never allow it to develop on any large scale.

    Fodeja, I'm very familiar with Eliza and the following improvements, like Ractor (actually this software was used to write a comical book once called "The Policeman's Beard Is Half Funny"} These programs had no real intelligence at all. In fact they were absolutely crazy. What made them seem intelligent at first glance is that they used the rules of language structure very well and incorporated bits and pieces of previous conversational input into the current topic. It would screw up royally though in short order.

    These programs are light years away though from neural networks which not only model the way the brain truly works, they generate brain waves as well. Even so, neural networks are in their infancy and are primarily limited now by computational power. Neural networks need massive parallel computer processing...which is just now starting to be developed on a large scale. Once we reach that level where there is plenty of room for the software to "use" then lets see what the verdict is on how far they develop intelligence.

    There is an old rule of thumb about what intelligence is. If a man is standing on a railroad track and sees a train rushing towards him, this is information or knowledge. Intelligence is using knowledge to recognize the consequences of what will happen if the train hits him. Wisdom is getting off the tracks.

    Using this as a guide...it is a fairly safe bet to guess that computers will gain intelligence this way but will they gain wisdom?

    Kind Regards,

    Skipper

  • fodeja
    fodeja

    Mindchild,

    I tend to agree with Jan that "intelligence" or "wisdom" (and "life") are things we keep talking about all the time, but we can't quite make up our minds what they really are.

    If anyone's interested, check out the titles "The Philosophy of Artificial Intelligence" and "The Philosophy of Artificial Life", both edited by Margaret A. Boden, published by Oxford University Press. There you can read the opinions of all the great names in AI and A-Life. Most of them are pretty unsure about these basic concepts (and even if they aren't, their hypotheses are quite easy to attack).

    There is an old rule of thumb about what intelligence is. If a man is standing on a railroad track and sees a train rushing towards him, this is information or knowledge. Intelligence is using knowledge to recognize the consequences of what will happen if the train hits him. Wisdom is getting off the tracks.
    What if a bird is sitting on the railroad tracks?

    f.

    (edited spelling)

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild
    Nonsense. Neural networks have become slightly more complex, but they're still programmed. They don't "learn to see by themselves", they're trained for pattern recognition in a way that could be called artificial selection, or breeding. Same with GAs.

    The point I was trying to make, is that while they do involve human interaction, they are not programmed in any conventional sense of the word. There are not lines of code generated and inserted into the neural networks. There are also different types of neural networks as well.

    You might enjoy reading about how neural networks are taught to see in The Age of Spiritual Machines : When Computers Exceed Human Intelligence by Ray Kurzweil or some of the more optimistic AI computer scientists. I don't have my books here with me as they are in storage otherwise I would provide a more detailed example.

    I'm familiar with what emergent computing is as well. I have to disagree totally with you though about what a breakthrough is. I took AI programing in college back in the early 1980's and the best we could do back then was with expert systems that were just a collection of clever rules. Now, we have comptuers that walk just as well as humans, that evolve sight and recognition, and can write stories like I showed at the begining of this thread. I would say that is a huge step in the right direction. Given time and more hardware, lets see what happens then. It could be that we will only have very smart toys but I doubt it.

    Skipper

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    I think there is already enough wet-ware out here that there is no sense in replicating it. Theoretically we know how to make gold but it would be more expensive than mining it.

    The Watchtower is already dealing with a formidable enemy ie the interlinking of human brains.

    In the 14 years that I have been participating in on-line forums (GEnie 1988) I have seen a steady dwindling of people who even think they can defend Watchtower teachings.

    The Watchtower can only survive if 1. Some form of Armageddon REALLY comes or 2. They change their doctrines and methods. Things can't stand still.

    We don't need super computers to figure out what's wrong with the Watchtower.

  • sunscapes
    sunscapes

    Jan, you said,

    Perhaps enormous computing power and sophisticated evolutionary algorithms will one day prove sufficient to create true articifical intelligence. Hopefully, we will know intelligence when we see it. But I will not bet that this is enough to create true AI.
    I think you're right. For true AI, for starters, self-awareness (or consciousness) would have to be reached. If in the study of metaphysics, scientists discover how energy entities traverse between dimensions, then perhaps we could be closer to that goal.

    I may sound far-fetched, but I would much rather deal with scientific principles and reasoning and factual discoveries with evidence then a whole bunch of hypothetical interpretations of religious texts.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Amazing.....Quote; "Presently, the new enemy of the Society will be the Court system where they will get a lesson in real Justice.
    The next enemy after that will be the JWs who are really pissed, and take mob action - against their own leaders".

    You are joking right? The ex dubs don't do that now. Why these ones be any different?

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